Why build walls?

[eerr]

For Castles down the road, unless that prereq has been removed since I last tested.

Units also = cost. A few surviving units that gain xp while defending behind a wall are way more valuable than lots of green units that continually get wiped out and in doing so give the enemy xp.

I don't focus on culture too much early on with my frontier towns either.

-this is how it works-if it's got too little production for an obelisk, then it's not worth building a wall(90&#37, because for the time you spend without defense and with the wall tech, the city just isn't worth that much to you.

-now if culture based defense started 1 border expansion later then it would be more balanced

 

[hegemonkhan]

delected by me

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I would like to see walls and even castles get more importance in defence. For instance, defencive bonuses from the two sources could compliment each other. I don't mean stack, but when bombarded the complimentary bonuses would each have to be reduced, therefor halving the effectiveness of the siege attack. For example, a city with culture +20 and walls (+25) gets bombarded by a catapult (10% bombard if I remember correctly). The first 5% disappears as normal, but the next 5% from the catapult is split between the two, bringing the city defence down to 17.5%. Next bombard by that catapult will be completely split, so only brings the defence to 12.5%.

This does sound real nice.

now if culture based defense started 1 border expansion later then it would be more balanced

Oddly enough, so does this.

 

[Chip56]

I would also like walls to have an MUCH higher defense rating than now.
Maybe 5x.
So if you build walls it would be really hard to storm a city or you would have to prepare for a long siege.
So the enemy wouldn't get a heavy fortifierd city for a long time but could still pillage the surroundings.

 

[Blakmane]

eh,IMO it's already difficult enough to storm cities. If you make city defence too good everyone will just turtle.

 

[much2much]

I agree.

And the only way to take cities is with big stacks except then big stacks are annihilated by collateral damage mundane or magic.

eh,IMO it's already difficult enough to storm cities. If you make city defence too good everyone will just turtle.

 

[Chip56]

If you make city defence too good everyone will just turtle.

You would still be able to pillage every single improvement around the city.
-> Produktion in the city close to zero.

Defenders still only get half the experience

And maybe thats just me but I never had big problems storming cities (although i only play against ai)

 

[kenken244]

what if the precentage boni from culture increase the boni from buildings
so if you have walls in a city with 100% culture precentage boni then the real defence value is 50

 

[vorshlumpf]

Hmm, that's an idea with merit...

 

[Jean Elcard]

what if the precentage boni from culture increase the boni from buildings
so if you have walls in a city with 100% culture precentage boni then the real defence value is 50

Sounds nice. I think it's a good mechanism to reflect the inhabitants trust in the city defences. But I wouldn't mind if someone decides to dump culture defense or let it start one culture level later. At the moment I have to admit walls are not worth to be build (like palisades some versions before and they got removed entirely by the team).

 

[NorseGryphon]

i might be coming out of left field, but as i understand walls, if your on foot without a ladder and with no means of climbing available ( assuming is a grip free wall) your not storming anything on foot, your making a camp outside waiting for the fireballs, could walls be a good way of stopping foot based units entirely, perhaps if you go to storm a town with walls your completely crapped out unless you have a siege tower with your band. maybe add a promotion string to the city attack promo, +25 to city attack, unit allowed to attack walled cities. i mean it might be a pain to take out an established enemy, but at the same time if your city is basically defensless and your neighbor makes a hasty move into your territory it would at least give you time to rally a defense before all your lands are pillaged, i like catapults and trebs already, but a true siege would need a real tower, also gives you a chance to knock out an advancing army early if you can take down their tower, i know its prob a wacky idea but it would be a nice addition.

 

[Sareln]

i might be coming out of left field, but as i understand walls, if your on foot without a ladder and with no means of climbing available ( assuming is a grip free wall) your not storming anything on foot, your making a camp outside waiting for the fireballs, could walls be a good way of stopping foot based units entirely, perhaps if you go to storm a town with walls your completely crapped out unless you have a siege tower with your band. maybe add a promotion string to the city attack promo, +25 to city attack, unit allowed to attack walled cities. i mean it might be a pain to take out an established enemy, but at the same time if your city is basically defensless and your neighbor makes a hasty move into your territory it would at least give you time to rally a defense before all your lands are pillaged, i like catapults and trebs already, but a true siege would need a real tower, also gives you a chance to knock out an advancing army early if you can take down their tower, i know its prob a wacky idea but it would be a nice addition.

I think seige towers are explained away by the time frame, ie. game turns are measured in years, so the whole system of siege is covered by telling your unit to occupy the same space as the city. I dunnae, I just feel that while simulating seige towers and stuff would be cool, it might be a bit too clunky to make for good gameplay.

 

[much2much]

I think seige towers are explained away by the time frame, ie. game turns are measured in years, so the whole system of siege is covered by telling your unit to occupy the same space as the city. I dunnae, I just feel that while simulating seige towers and stuff would be cool, it might be a bit too clunky to make for good gameplay.

Good point.

Fall From Heaven 2 is a great mod that makes Civ 4 a better experience. They have changed some very basic assumptions of the game in great ways.

Complex changes like this are things that could benefit FFH but apply to vanilla Civ or any other mod out there.

 

[Grey Fox]

In warlords there are even siege towers in the animation when attacking cities.

 

[much2much]

Okay so lets assume even warriors will lash some ladders together and the like, whereas your catapult units and the like are a bunch of real well designed siege engines and a few blokes with swords to help defend them.

In warlords there are even siege towers in the
animation when attacking cities.

 

[daladinn]

my 2 cp ...

iirc and i might be wrong but i am pretty sure walls and wall of stone stack. thsi could give you the 100% bonus that woudl jsut edge you past the culture wall. however thats not the point.

the elohim are the only civ that truely benefits from walls. they can pull a 125% defensive bonus from walls and the buildign that gives the extra 25% also has a large chance of giving units built int he city the defensive promotion for an additional 80% when defending.

 

[Gamestation]

my 2 cp ...

iirc and i might be wrong but i am pretty sure walls and wall of stone stack. thsi could give you the 100% bonus that woudl jsut edge you past the culture wall. however thats not the point.

the elohim are the only civ that truely benefits from walls. they can pull a 125% defensive bonus from walls and the buildign that gives the extra 25% also has a large chance of giving units built int he city the defensive promotion for an additional 80% when defending.

Fix those numbers. Almost anyone can pull off 130% defense with archery range (+5%), walls (+25%), wall of stone spell (+25%), castles (+50%), and bear totem (+25%). Khazad also have their palace which gives +20% defense to all of their cities. Though you are right that the Elohim can get the highest defense by their chancel of guardians (+25%) and defensive promotion (+40% while defending, -40% while attacking). Everyone could still benefit from defensive structures, especially if they want to protect their core cities from a surprise attack by the Horsemen while still being able to guard their frontier cities effectively.

 

[Grey Fox]

Malakim also get +40% defense in their cities if they settle on desert.

 

[eerr]

Malakim also get +40% defense in their cities if they settle on desert.

net +15% unless it's a desert hill...

 

[Sareln]

People have mentioned that recon is a tad strong for their taste, though it does suffer from attacking cities. We also have this thread here, where we're trying to make walls useful and worth building.

Wouldn't it make sense, that a walled city would be much more difficult for a recon class unit to attack? After all, a unit of rangers isn't expected to build seige towers, battering rams, take walls, and the like.

Perhaps then, walls should increase the penalty that recon units suffer when attacking it (say to -70 or -80&#37?