Why but why can't I build West Point?

[morchuflex]

Hello.

I have Military Tradition and several units above 5 xp. Still, I can't build West Point. Why? The icon doesn't even appear in my cities, not even greyed. Did I miss something?

 

[warpstorm]

It's not 5 xp, but rather a level 5 unit (17 xp, IIRC).

 

[morchuflex]

It's not 5 xp, but rather a level 5 unit (17 xp, IIRC).

Aaaaaaaaargh! How the hell am I supposed to get that high? Is it even possible for non-aggressive civs?
Let me see... Vasselage + Theocracy + barracks... won't be enough. I do have the Pentagone, though. But still, I guess I will need some heavy warfare, won't I?

 

[gunkulator]

You have to do some fighting to get West Point. No way around it.

 

[tezster]

Aaaaaaaaargh! How the hell am I supposed to get that high? Is it even possible for non-aggressive civs?
Let me see... Vasselage + Theocracy + barracks... won't be enough. I do have the Pentagone, though. But still, I guess I will need some heavy warfare, won't I?

Well if you think about it from a practical standpoint, it's hard to justify a pacifist society wanting/having the need for a Wespoint, which, after all, is a military institution.

So it only seems right that you would have to engage in some sort of warfare before being able to build it.

 

[danegeld]

why wouldnt a pacifist socity hgave westpoint? if you want peace you must be prepared for war..ask Switerland

 

[Cosine]

Well it makes perfect sense for it to be only accessable to warlike civs, those teaching there would have to base their lessons off of actual experienece.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Well it makes perfect sense for it to be only accessable to warlike civs, those teaching there would have to base their lessons off of actual experienece.

exactly - how can you have a "Military Tradition" without, you know, a tradition of war? If you haven't fought any wars, you have nothing to teach. The Swiss are certainly prepared for war, but their armed forces, while competent, are not exemplary.

Now, the Swiss of the late middle/early renaissance, on the other hand. . . .

 

[Grohan]

Just do some warmongering and you will reach the XP limit easily. It is even more easy if you have bombers.

 

[Vaiks]

Military tactics, history and tradition can be teatched by forigners on any country. West Point graduates oficials, strategists, people whom are able to see the big picture and build strategies fron it that will lead its commanded to victory, and that knowlegd is translated on xp points in the game.

If you have friendly contact with a civilization that has a 5 level unit you should be able to build it.

 

[Meffy]

If you have friendly contact with a civilization that has a 5 level unit you should be able to build it.

Then it would no longer be a reward for success at fighting, and would become a nearly random benefit. I generally play very peaceful, so I shouldn't have access to the goodies that enable a super military-industrial complex.

IMO it would be a mistake to think that everything in the Civ world must reflect the real world. My feeling is that in the Civ world, nations are far too jealous of their military geniuses and doctrines to allow other nations to gain access to them. Think of the opportunities for back-stabbing -- might be fun to play, if that's your thing, but what leader would care to set up such a situation?

I prefer West Point the way it is now, even though I'm rarely able to build it.

 

[HalfBadger]

why wouldnt a pacifist socity hgave westpoint? if you want peace you must be prepared for war..ask Switerland

1) The Swiss are on most issues politically neutral. Not Pacifists...

2) I don't think they have a 'West Point' anyways, but have lots of experience with stuff like barracks, vassalage, as well as, something that hasn't been incorporated into Civ, is their 'workers' have combat training/get the bonuses from barracks. Thats why they have a good army, because every adult gets like 3 weeks training a year.

3) On ther other Canada for example, is basically a pacifist nation (of course they above anyone can afford to be) and have a poor military.

 

[TCGTRF]

1) The Swiss are on most issues politically neutral. Not Pacifists...

2) I don't think they have a 'West Point' anyways, but have lots of experience with stuff like barracks, vassalage, as well as, something that hasn't been incorporated into Civ, is their 'workers' have combat training/get the bonuses from barracks. Thats why they have a good army, because every adult gets like 3 weeks training a year.

3) On ther other Canada for example, is basically a pacifist nation (of course they above anyone can afford to be) and have a poor military.

I'm sure the German troops defending Juno Beach and the members of the Luftwaffe facing the Canadian pilots who volunteered for the RAF all felt grateful that they were being defeated by poor soldiers from a pacifist nation.

Canada has not had a history of maintaining a large army. However, they declared war on Germany separately from Britain on September 10, 1939. There was a Canadian Corps in the Italian campaign and a full Army in Normandy.

The Canadians also fought in the abortive Dieppe raid and were stationed in Hong Kong when it fell to the Japanese.

In addition to the above, a decent percentage of the armored units used by the Allies in the European Theatre were manufactured in Canadian auto plants.

There were 600,000 (!) Canadians who fought in WW1, many of the survivors were the fathers of the brave volunteers who fought in WW2 and Korea (where they fought under the auspices of the United Nations Resolution.)

In 1991, Canadians were members of the Multinational force that liberated Kuwait.

Those who fail History are doomed to take the class over again.

Tom

 

[OttovonBismarck]

The United States did not have much military experience either when westpoint was built. In fact, many of the original teachers at the academy were Prussian, not American. Technically then, it does not make sense for Westpoint to require extensive military activities. Although...one could say that the Prussians "gifted" America the officers (to use civ4 terms), which would result is America having a 5th level unit =/

 

[GeneralX]

OK, so it’s called West Point. But it could easily have been called Sandhurst or Duntroon, or the name of some other military institution that excels at teaching and creating excellent military leaders. The point is that that type of institution only grows out of a society that has a significant military tradition and studies the art of war. Nations who generally don’t have a lengthy history of professionalism (that’s the key word in all of this – professionalism) in military tradition don’t usually have an institution like West Point. Yes that means having to be a bit of a warmonger, but if you pick your battles and strategic alliances it’s not such a bad thing. Come on…you can do it…come to the dark side….

 

[Bezurn]

Getting to level 5 isn't that tough at all, you just have to baby one unit in a raid against the AI. I also select 2-3 of my level two units as canidates and don't let them attack until the dust has settled from the first few waves of catapult fodder. You do get more experiance from fighting full health units, but unless I catch the enemy at a disadvantage I will take it slow and easy and use the ole catapults to do the dirty work.

Swordsmen with city raider make excellent canidates. Also macemen with cover are excellent as well as longbows fall to them pretty reguallry too.

Now getting a ship above level III, thats a real tricky task to pull off in singleplayer. (before modern area at least).

 

[HalfBadger]

I'm sure the German troops defending Juno Beach and the members of the Luftwaffe facing the Canadian pilots who volunteered for the RAF all felt grateful that they were being defeated by poor soldiers from a pacifist nation.

Canada has not had a history of maintaining a large army. However, they declared war on Germany separately from Britain on September 10, 1939. There was a Canadian Corps in the Italian campaign and a full Army in Normandy.

The Canadians also fought in the abortive Dieppe raid and were stationed in Hong Kong when it fell to the Japanese.

In addition to the above, a decent percentage of the armored units used by the Allies in the European Theatre were manufactured in Canadian auto plants.

There were 600,000 (!) Canadians who fought in WW1, many of the survivors were the fathers of the brave volunteers who fought in WW2 and Korea (where they fought under the auspices of the United Nations Resolution.)

In 1991, Canadians were members of the Multinational force that liberated Kuwait.

Those who fail History are doomed to take the class over again.

Tom

I said 'basically' a pasifist nation. I know we had ppl in the WWs and Korea, but other than that, how many of your soldiers do front line fighting etc, compared to intelligence and peace keeping?

 

[TCGTRF]

I said 'basically' a pasifist nation. I know we had ppl in the WWs and Korea, but other than that, how many of your soldiers do front line fighting etc, compared to intelligence and peace keeping?

I expect Canadian soldiers to be participating more in the affairs of the world very shortly.

A lot of the participation in the World Wars was due to love of Great Britain and a perceived threat to the Mother Country of the English-speakers. The Korean and Gulf War participations were due to membership in the United Nations.

The Canadian combat soldiers were quite fierce. They've never had the reputation of the Scots, though. My father descibed the only time he ever saw first-tier German troops run in Europe involved a Scots regiment with pipers. The Germans packed up their stuff and took off (evidently this unit had faced the same regiment in North Africa.) He said that his buddies called the Scots, "The Ladies from Hades" due to the kilts.

My son, who was in the American 101st Air Assault Division was shot (not seriously) while doing cadre in the UN Peacekeeping mission in Bosnia. Peacekeeping is not always a walk-over--often there are folks who desperately want to break the peace so that they can get the at guy over the next hill. Fortunately, he was mustered out on a medical, missed the Second Gulf War and married a wonderful FN woman from Whitehorse and works as a security guard. I'm a lot happier with him keeping volleyball players from staying too late at the gym.

Tom

 

[Willem]

3) On ther other Canada for example, is basically a pacifist nation (of course they above anyone can afford to be) and have a poor military.

Wow, we have a military force? When did this happen?

 

[Willem]

I expect Canadian soldiers to be participating more in the affairs of the world very shortly.

Don't count on it, Afghanistan has us stretched pretty thin. The Americans despised us for not joining in Iraq, but the truth was we couldn't have even if we wanted to. We just didn't have any troops to spare at the time. Our UN activities keeps what few troops we have pretty busy these days. Even with a budget increase, which is supposed to be in the works, it will take time to train new soldiers.