Why Civ V is more complex than Civ IV

Play diety on standard or large continents and get a science victory or a culture victory or a diplomacy victory. How about on immortal or even emperor standard continent maps without doing the domination victory?

I've just finished a game on emporer. It was a domination victory but done with tiresome assaults between islands trying to protect troops with battleships. It took an age to do because the embarked troops move so slowly, need convoy guards, and mess up their orders at every opportunity with 1 unit per hex blocking. What made it easy the fact that only one opponent had built more than three cities, and although he'd researched battleships (very troublesome too) before me he never built any land unit more advanced than a musketman. You can capture just the capital of each nation to secure the domination victory so that's all I did, attacking each from the sea, clearing up any lemming like units they had left, then making peace.

I chose the domination victory as I only ever had an opportunity to get any diplomatic deal with two of the AI opponents and one of those attacked me pretty early on too. I've no idea why they were all so snooty as I didn't declare on anyone or take any capitals until I had riflemen. Considering all the bugs which make it difficult for players, including the utterly opaque diplomacy, I wouldn't assume the game will be much more challenging when a good number of those bugs are fixed.
 
Actually three out of four of those features - corporations, vassals and colonies - didn't come out until with expansions. If you read the backs of your copies of warlords and beyond the sword, you will start to realize how many of those great concepts and content - there were only 18 civs in the vanilla Civ4, MUCH less buildings and wonders(BtS alone had over 60 new buildings and several new wonders) - didn't come out until a couple of years after the vanilla was released.
I am fully aware of that, but the last year of the last generation Mustang that was released came with MP3 playback and an iPod jack. When the new one comes with simply FM and CD, I am going to naturally compare it to the previous gen, last year, not the first year of the last gen.

And I want to be clear - some things may indeed be BETTER with reduced complexity. I don't miss Espionage at all. Not a bit. I enjoy the game more without it. But it is undoubtedly less complex with it's removal. It's also, to me, more fun (though by making it removable, Civ4 catered to everyone, which is the proper way).

But the argument that because you are paying for City Walls in 2020 makes it "complex" because you have to think before building them in 3000BC is abjectly foolish. Watch - they will allow you to sell, or expire Walls in a future expansion or patch. Will it then become "less complex"? No.

And to others arguing that Civ5 is "complex" and Civ4 is "complicated", I recommend a dictionary. Mindless apologism is just INSUFFERABLE.
 
"Do I build the temple first or the library? I need the culture real quick, but that extra science boost might get me a tech 1 turn quicker"

How is this different than Civ 5? And in Civ 5 you have the added choice of, 'Can i afford to build this improvement, is it worth the money i am paying for it? Is this the right city for this improvement?' Where as Civ 4 was 'Which order shall i build all the buildings in for this city?'. Swings and round-abouts, both methods have their upsides and their downsides, put i would argue that they are equally complex.

The question is almost 95% of the time... No I dont need it. Cause I just can run over the AI and not care and exploit the City States Bonuses.

And outside of the how much it really cost me question the same could be apply to CIV IV... is this city is good for this building? Is it the right time? Does my production is high enough so it dont hurt me? Even if you didnt lose gold for making the actual decision you lost precious time/turn which was has crucial. Now you add Money! So the actual complexity of the game end up you not building much of anything. Who even build an opera house once????

Now after a few game, I just build the Commerce buildings and get myself 2 city for science.. buy off most of my military when I need more of them and cry about the 10% change up for building Wealth/Research cause my city are more usefull to me being idle than actually making them do something... I guess that doing close to nothing can be complex after all :crazyeye:

Doing other stuff then this, unless trying the very entertaining cultural victory, is simply YOU make the game more complex for yourself by yourself because the challenge isnt good enough. For example, like all the good Canadians out there, I'm a die hard EA NHL games... I kill the game at the higher difficulties easily so I put restriction on my own gameplay to make it enjoyable.... it doesnt make the game tougher by itself... its only the way I've played it that changed. Well the same apply here... the only reason why it is so easy to beat, its because your "so call" hard decision making arnt hard enough!!
 
City maintenance in Civ4 wasn't a problem at all. Seriously, there were so many ways around it that it made it a benefit to build a new city even if all it did was sit there and produce wealth. They weren't "effective checks" at all.

Civ3 was even worse.

Not true at all unless you were playing well below noble. :lol:

That's not very fair. In fact it seems to be showing more your lack of experience with levels above Noble.

The main limiter to expansion in civ4 was not the costs of running the new city but rather the cost of building the settler. I play at Emperor usually and have dabbled at Immortal at times, and in almost all cases your empire is better when it has more cities. As I said before, the only problem is the opportunity cost when you build those settlers.

It's true there is a stage in the game where priorities shift a bit and the focus is not so much on expansion, but even at those points in the game expansion still helps - just helps less than what other things you could be doing.

I'm definitely getting the feeling in civ5 more than I did in civ4 that a bigger empire isn't always better. Unless conquering cities where it seems not at all bad to start running the happiness into the -10 and further below, when expanding peacefully, dropping happiness below 0 is a real deterrent, because new cities not only add more population but also more unhappiness from cities, meaning you have even fewer citizens to work than if you had just grew your existing cities. Instead, the time to expand is when there is a city site that either brings in new resources or has tiles that are on average better than the ones your cities are already working, or of course if you have excess happiness that is going to waste.

Anyway, I won't go too much into detail on civ5 because I'm still learning the ropes, but I'm mainly pointing out that expansion in civ4 wasn't limited much by city maintenance costs. Celevin was right - he said there were almost always ways around it. For example, building the great lighthouse and building a few offshore cities and then pretty much spamming coastal cities has very little negative impact on your gpt, and those cities pay themselves back very fast (if not, immediately) when they start off earning 8:commerce: from 4 trade routes. Producing wealth was another way for a city to pretty quickly start earning more than what it was taking to maintain.

Civ5 definitely has a more effective implementation for discouraging ICS (infinite city sprawl to anyone else reading who's not in the know), but in the end ICS is still very much possible (alive and well, if you will) in both games.

ICS was definitely not limited to low-difficulty in civ4 games.
 
I admit I only read the first page.

Anyway, anybody claiming this, hasn't played civ4 to his full extent. Or is just glorifying civ5. I have a lot of fun with civ5, but stating what OP says is just daydreaming
 
I admit I only read the first page.

Anyway, anybody claiming this, hasn't played civ4 to his full extent. Or is just glorifying civ5. I have a lot of fun with civ5, but stating what OP says is just daydreaming

People want to believe what they want to believe I guess.

Anyway, until the horrific AI is fixed, it is pretty hard to appreciate any complexity in this game.

The question is almost 95% of the time... No I dont need it. Cause I just can run over the AI and not care and exploit the City States Bonuses.

Correct and quite funny as well. Well played sir! :lol:
 
That's not very fair. In fact it seems to be showing more your lack of experience with levels above Noble.

The main limiter to expansion in civ4 was not the costs of running the new city but rather the cost of building the settler. I play at Emperor usually and have dabbled at Immortal at times, and in almost all cases your empire is better when it has more cities. As I said before, the only problem is the opportunity cost when you build those settlers.

It's true there is a stage in the game where priorities shift a bit and the focus is not so much on expansion, but even at those points in the game expansion still helps - just helps less than what other things you could be doing.

Actually Settlers were only a limitation in the pre-industrial era. For the rest of the game, unless you played with too few civs for the map size, there would be no space left for many new cities; you'd be conquering cities. The cap to expansion was battling against the culture of captured cities and being able to protect an expanding circumference of borders in the age of naval and air warfare.

It's true they needed to add checks on expansion, but they should have done it by expanding on the checks already in place, then looking at the real world to see what brings large empires down. It's mostly common sense - cost of bureaucracy, difficulty keeping cultural and political cohesion in a vast decentralised system, resentment and fear from your neighbours and so on. Instead, they removed what details existed in Civ 4 and just made one single number, happiness, govern your whole empire.

This is the kind of arbitrary simplification, with complete denial of reality, that really irks me about the game. It's just designers coming up with the laziest way to solve the problem. Supposedly this is meant to reduce micromanagement, but it doesn't, since you need to build happiness buildings in each city anyway. If happiness is one number and is supposed to be global, then controlling happiness should be global as well. As it is, even though this one number does the job of capping expansion, everything about it makes no sense. In a real world setting, it would seem building a colosseum in Moscow makes people just as happy in Vladivostok. But if someone decides to plop down a settlement in Siberia where more oil has been discovered, the entire country could go on strike. Preparing for war has been turned upside down – you no longer build up your industrial might, in preparation for churning out replacement troops faster than your enemy - you need so few troops now and loose so few. Instead you build happiness buildings so you can annex as many cities as possible. Sure in Civ 4 you had to beef up your happiness to combat war weariness, but that was realistic and only mattered while you were at war. In Civ 5, it matters after the war, as if all of human history was anti-imperialist. As I said in another thread, I don't recall hearing about Alexander fretting in Babylon after hearing about production and procreation in Macedonia coming to a halt because of all his conquests, or Great Britain constructing colosseums all over the island in preparation for conquering half the planet. For most of human history, happiness was expansion. Ethnic and cultural pride was all they had.

Happiness is just one of the many arbitrary simplifications that has meant, for me, this game has no relation to actual “civilization” in anything but name. It's just an abstract Euro boardgame to be solved and optimised. Euro games are fun and intellectually stimulating as far as boardgames go, but I expect something more out of empire building computer games.
 
What I can definitely agree with is that happiness in civ5 has been turned into a rather bizarre game mechanic that is not very intuitive most of the time. It really does feel like another currency now, especially with it accumulating when positive towards a golden age.

In a way, happiness in civ5 feels like gold from civ4. When I build a colosseum or another building to improve happiness, it's for a similar reason to why I would have built a bank or built wealth in civ4.

I haven't decided whether I like it more or less than how civ4 did it, but it's certainly higher on the abstraction scale.
 
falconne, you are not alone on that. It was one of the most debated and controversial addition to the game before its release.

Odd, I wonder who was the guy whom all of the sudden convinced all other Firaxis members at the conference room that we will eliminate all complexities of Civ 4 and reduce them to mere insignificance, and put in a singular feature as the happiness factor? He must have good persuasion skill. A modern Demosthenes? lol
 
Odd, I wonder who was the guy whom all of the sudden convinced all other Firaxis members at the conference room that we will eliminate all complexities of Civ 4 and reduce them to mere insignificance, and put in a singular feature as the happiness factor? He must have good persuasion skill.

haha I have that same thought about uncomprensible design decisions when playing games.
 
In civ4 there was alot of options like corporations and espionage that I never got the hang of that just felt useless and complicated. Those functions might become fun you are the kind of person that plays civ for two hours every night for a year, which I am not. In civ 5 I have to think alot about my choices and plan ahead, which creates complexity. If just the AI could fight all those social policy and building choices would be much more important. I like the new mystery AI where I cant tell exactly how it feels or know how the AI will react because he is Isabella, monty or Ghandi. What I dont like in civ 5 is that you are bound to get in a war if you are next to them. Knowing the AI will attack you is not very mysterious, sometimes it would be nice to be neighbours and not get attacked.

If you refrain from using exploits you can have a really fun time in civ5. I am currently trying to win a space race on emperor on earth with 6-8 cities while holding back the AI hordes. I will refrain from take over the world which would be easy and at the same time optimize my cities while defending from the AI.
 
Actually Settlers were only a limitation in the pre-industrial era. For the rest of the game, unless you played with too few civs for the map size, there would be no space left for many new cities; you'd be conquering cities. The cap to expansion was battling against the culture of captured cities and being able to protect an expanding circumference of borders in the age of naval and air warfare.

It's true they needed to add checks on expansion, but they should have done it by expanding on the checks already in place, then looking at the real world to see what brings large empires down. It's mostly common sense - cost of bureaucracy, difficulty keeping cultural and political cohesion in a vast decentralised system, resentment and fear from your neighbours and so on. Instead, they removed what details existed in Civ 4 and just made one single number, happiness, govern your whole empire.

This is the kind of arbitrary simplification, with complete denial of reality, that really irks me about the game. It's just designers coming up with the laziest way to solve the problem. Supposedly this is meant to reduce micromanagement, but it doesn't, since you need to build happiness buildings in each city anyway. If happiness is one number and is supposed to be global, then controlling happiness should be global as well. As it is, even though this one number does the job of capping expansion, everything about it makes no sense. In a real world setting, it would seem building a colosseum in Moscow makes people just as happy in Vladivostok. But if someone decides to plop down a settlement in Siberia where more oil has been discovered, the entire country could go on strike. Preparing for war has been turned upside down – you no longer build up your industrial might, in preparation for churning out replacement troops faster than your enemy - you need so few troops now and loose so few. Instead you build happiness buildings so you can annex as many cities as possible. Sure in Civ 4 you had to beef up your happiness to combat war weariness, but that was realistic and only mattered while you were at war. In Civ 5, it matters after the war, as if all of human history was anti-imperialist. As I said in another thread, I don't recall hearing about Alexander fretting in Babylon after hearing about production and procreation in Macedonia coming to a halt because of all his conquests, or Great Britain constructing colosseums all over the island in preparation for conquering half the planet. For most of human history, happiness was expansion. Ethnic and cultural pride was all they had.

Happiness is just one of the many arbitrary simplifications that has meant, for me, this game has no relation to actual “civilization” in anything but name. It's just an abstract Euro boardgame to be solved and optimised. Euro games are fun and intellectually stimulating as far as boardgames go, but I expect something more out of empire building computer games.

Well put sir. These are the kind of things that are big immersion killers for me. The arbitrary simplification as you put it. Global happiness as a mechanic makes little sense to me as it is counter intuitive in so many ways.

Warfare without war weariness is another one. Having your soldiers die left and right and having scores of units decimated has zero effect on your people. Win the war though and conquer a city and they are breaking out the pitchforks. What the...?
 
The irony being that a lot of people complaining that Civ5 is dumbed down also want the numbers in diplomacy back so that they can see what effect their choices have....
 
The irony being that a lot of people complaining that Civ5 is dumbed down also want the numbers in diplomacy back so that they can see what effect their choices have....
The notion is called 'lack of transparency' rather than 'irony'. You need transparency in order to make the correct strategic or tactical decisions.
 
The irony being that a lot of people complaining that Civ5 is dumbed down also want the numbers in diplomacy back so that they can see what effect their choices have....

Do you have proof of that? I certainly don't want the numbers back anyway.

Diplomacy as well as the awful AI do need to be vastly improved though.
 
The irony being that a lot of people complaining that Civ5 is dumbed down also want the numbers in diplomacy back so that they can see what effect their choices have....

Hiding relevant information does not make a game strategic, it makes it seem random. Why not hide other numbers too then. Don't display tech costs, use your experience to determine research time by era. Replace happiness count with statuses of Very Happy, Happy, Unhappy and Furious, so you can't tell what your buffer is. It would sure make the game more difficult, but it doesn't make it strategic.

In any case, AI modifiers are a moot point now - the AI seems to act completely randomly and is suicidal, so diplomacy isn't much use.
 
The irony being that a lot of people complaining that Civ5 is dumbed down also want the numbers in diplomacy back so that they can see what effect their choices have....

You can't make decisions if you're not informed. If you can't make decisions it's dumbed down.

The pact of secrecy must be a developer's joke. It's so secret, they've not told anyone what it does. It's so secret, once you've got one you can't even tell it's there.
 
Ah! The 'I don't understand it, and therefore it is dumb' arguement. Actually that goes for quite a few of the points raised as proof that Civ5 is dumbed down.

Ignore the AI, for that isn't dumbed down, it is just a bit stupid. Beyond that all i hear is it is different, and therefore it is dumbed down. I am not arguing that it isn't dumbed down, i am just pointing out that at the moment we haven't truely explored the game to a point where we can make that statement. The poor AI is actually stopping us from doing that because we don't need to explore those depths when it is easy to beat without looking there. When/if the AI gets improved and we have to start really looking for ways to beat it, then we can see if it has been dumbed down.

As for pact of secrecy, i thought it was pretty obvious how they work, you agree to try to undermine your target, no pacts, stop him from expanding etc. if you do that the leader offereing the the pact is pleased, where as if you start signing pacts with the target they get a bit annoyed.
 
I really don't care if civ5 is better or worse than bts; it's a different game and for me it's good to
have different game.
The 1UpT makes it a different game; and the change from 8 sides to 6 sides tiles helps it; limited
effects of resources, too.
This game is founded on great ideas; but it is poorly implemented.
I hope that will be corrected. Anyway I payed for the game and the seller never told his producted was unfinished.
 
Ah! The 'I don't understand it, and therefore it is dumb' arguement. Actually that goes for quite a few of the points raised as proof that Civ5 is dumbed down.

No, he understands it perfectly. We can guess at the intention of it, but we have no idea what exact effect it has. In a game based on numbers, you can't make an informed decision without those numbers. It's a lazy way to make an overly simplified calculation seem organic and complicated.

You can use your argument as a justification to hide the exact happiness number, like I mentioned, and pretend the underlying interactions are complex.

I think those of use who are complaining understand the game all too well, since we are beating it on the highest difficulties.
 
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