Why Corean?

[Pangur Bán]

jerosen said

You are marginalizing the unique histories, cultures and identities of two countries. To me it seems condescending and uninformed.

AND I SAID "Can you please explain what you just said, or are we supposed to guess?"

..and then Melanic Sheep said

He meant that what you said was spoken from a point of extreme ignorance.

Well, then, what exactly was ignornant? What have I said that is incorrect? It's totally meaningless to call something ignorant, but have no justification. Call me old fashioned if you like, but I normally expect some kind of justification, even if the justification isn't itself worth very much. And, let's be fair to me, there was no justification whatsoever .

 

[Melanic Sheep]

Originally posted by calgacus
jerosen said




AND I SAID "Can you please explain what you just said, or are we supposed to guess?"

..and then Melanic Sheep said





Well, then, what exactly was ignornant? What have I said that is incorrect? It's totally meaningless to call something ignorant, but have no justification. Call me old fashioned if you like, but I normally expect some kind of justification, even if the justification isn't itself worth very much. And, let's be fair to me, there was no justification whatsoever .

Ignorance is when you don't know about something, your comments led me to believe you were ignorant of many things that would explain why Canada and the US are different countries. For instance, did you know that Canada is still an English colony? probably not. Lack of knowledge is ignorance, what you said was ignorant. Not stupid, not bad, just not enlightened. I have no problem with you, just know the facts before you talk.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Ignorance is when you don't know about something, your comments led me to believe you were ignorant of many things that would explain why Canada and the US are different countries. For instance, did you know that Canada is still an English colony? probably not. Lack of knowledge is ignorance, what you said was ignorant. Not stupid, not bad, just not enlightened. I have no problem with you, just know the facts before you talk.

Thank you for defining ignorance for me. However, I do have a dictionary in front of me that does it much better.

Sorry to be a pain...but I insist upon some JUSTIFICATION. Simply throwing statements about just won't do...no,no! Anyway, Canada is not an English colony anymore, I think that you might be confusing this with her membership of the Commonwealth.

But...please don't turn this into a nasty game of insults, I'm looking for an argument. Please give me one, and stop making unsupported statements of that kind!

 

[jerosen]

Originally posted by Melanic Sheep


He meant that what you said was spoken from a point of extreme ignorance.

Yes. Thats another way of putting it.

Jim

 

[Melanic Sheep]

ig·no·rance n.
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

Uninformed in this case, I think. (Am I getting sucked into this circular argument?) You made a broad generalization about Canada and the US being the same. They aren't. Barring some general similarities such as primary spoken language, Canada and the US are two very different places. Our governments are structured differently, our laws are different, we value different things and we go about things in very differnt ways. I am still comfortable in my opinion of the ignorance of your original post.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Good..now we're getting somewhere

What is it that people in Seattle, Dallas, Miami, New York, San Diego, etc all value that people in Vancouver and Toronto don't?

Even if you can answer that question, you still have to say why this makes them a nation.

I'm aware USA and Canada are independent states, have different legal systems, etc. But this really isn't enough to say that they are different nations.

I tend to think that people in Seattle have more in common with people in just over the border in Vancouver than they do with people in Dallas or New Orleans. There were times when Texas was not in the USA, but now it is. They (most of them) now consider themselves to be Americans. That is not simply because of a Bill, it’s also because they share common values, language, etc, with the rest of North America.

Imagine that Alberta, Ontario and British Columbia all became member states of the USA. Would they really stand out as another "nation"? I don't think they would. From my own observations, there seem to be many more differences between various parts of the USA than between Canada and the states on her border.

People often forget that the USA is not a nation with sacred, fixed borders engraved in heaven. Up until very recently the US was a state that expanded to include all the N. European territories of North America.

If you looked at a linguistic or cultural map of N. America you would not be able to tell where the US-Canadian border lies. I currently have one in front of me, and believe me, the border does not stand out!

And please don't interpret this as a claim that Canada is just an extension of the USA, and therefore inferior to it. I am not saying that. I have a classical view of nationality fixed in my head, and from that point of view the USA and Canada are only separate states, not nations, and certainly not civs.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Why Korean? Maybe because unlike China and Japan, it is a north asian country we didn't fight a war with. But with the addition of the Mongols, I am shocked at how complete that part of the world is; Europe for instance with England, France, Germany, Italy, Greece, now Spain is the only other region that comes close. Africa - whole continent - Zulu, Egypt, and Carthage? Puh - leeze.

 

[God]

Oh well sucks for the Koreons and Chinese. The Mongol horde will run them over!

I bet the first SG with XP will be variant w/ Mongols. "Raze all cities, destroy all improvements" along those lines.

I never felt that Korea was that significant enough to be included, and so far we don't know if the Turks are in it.

I'm am going to be really mad if the the Turks are kicked out and the Koreans are in. Sure Korea fought some war, and they helped Japan reach its height with those Samurai and all, by giving Chinese influence over, but the Turks, mainly Seljuk and Ottoman did tons more, and had a big impact on the world when they were around.

I didn't realize that S. Korea was such a big market. I know that it is quite advanced and has a large population for such small nation, but didn't realize it was one of the biggest non-US markets for games.

 

[Melanic Sheep]

Well, lets see...

"What is it that people in Seattle, Dallas, Miami, New York, San Diego, etc all value that people in Vancouver and Toronto don't?"

The right to bear arms for example, Americans have a constitutional right to bear arms to protect themselves from their goverment. Canadians have no such right nor see any need for such a right. (Of couse people have differing opinions on this on both sides of the border but as a country Canada has no need for this right.)



"I tend to think that people in Seattle have more in common with people in just over the border in Vancouver than they do with people in Dallas or New Orleans. There were times when Texas was not in the USA, but now it is. They (most of them) now consider themselves to be Americans. That is not simply because of a Bill, it’s also because they share common values, language, etc, with the rest of North America."

It could also be because of the high number of Americans that were living there at the time and also the Expansionist tendencies of America at the time. And you must remember that Mexico is also a part of North America and if you suggest that Mexico is just another Canada/US you're going to lose credibility with me.

"Imagine that Alberta, Ontario and British Columbia all became member states of the USA. Would they really stand out as another "nation"? I don't think they would. "

Of course not they would be a part of the US at that point.

"People often forget that the USA is not a nation with sacred, fixed borders engraved in heaven. Up until very recently the US was a state that expanded to include all the N. European territories of North America."

I think you might mean Englsh colonies here but I'm not sure, I need some clarification.

"If you looked at a linguistic or cultural map of N. America you would not be able to tell where the US-Canadian border lies. I currently have one in front of me, and believe me, the border does not stand out!"

And all of the European and Asian borders are sharply defined?
Of course the linguistic borders aren't very clear, you're looking at two primarily English speaking countries.

 

[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

Let's stay on topic, please. Korea is at issue, though I personally can't see why - they're a perfectly legitimate Civ.

 

[jerosen]

Originally posted by calgacus
Good..now we're getting somewhere

What is it that people in Seattle, Dallas, Miami, New York, San Diego, etc all value that people in Vancouver and Toronto don't?

Even if you can answer that question, you still have to say why this makes them a nation.

What is it that people in London value that people in Sydney don't? Or vice versa?

I'm aware USA and Canada are independent states, have different legal systems, etc. But this really isn't enough to say that they are different nations.

Ah ha! You seem to be making some unexplained distinction between "nation" and "state". Those two words are commonly used interchangeably. However, you seem to have a very specific meaning you are applying to "nation" that we are not aware of. Please elaborate on what it is that you think does or does not qualify as a "nation".

For example can you explain to us what it is (excluding language) that makes France and Germany different nations?

I tend to think that people in Seattle have more in common with people in just over the border in Vancouver than they do with people in Dallas or New Orleans. There were times when Texas was not in the USA, but now it is. They (most of them) now consider themselves to be Americans. That is not simply because of a Bill, it’s also because they share common values, language, etc, with the rest of North America.

Imagine that Alberta, Ontario and British Columbia all became member states of the USA. Would they really stand out as another "nation"? I don't think they would. From my own observations, there seem to be many more differences between various parts of the USA than between Canada and the states on her border.

What exactly are the differences in the people of the various parts of the USA that you have observed?

People often forget that the USA is not a nation with sacred, fixed borders engraved in heaven. Up until very recently the US was a state that expanded to include all the N. European territories of North America.

I fail to see your point here. No nation has sacred borders engraved in heaven. Most nations have had changes in their bondaries in the past century. The US-Canada border was virtually solidified by 1846 with the signing of the Oregon Treaty. How many European borders have changed in the past 150 years... does that lessen their status as nations?

If you looked at a linguistic or cultural map of N. America you would not be able to tell where the US-Canadian border lies. I currently have one in front of me, and believe me, the border does not stand out!

Are you looking at a linguistic map or a cultural map or both? How do we find these maps?

Obviously linguistics does not define national borders. Look at Europe. Look at S. America.

What is a "cultural map" supposed to show? How is "culture" defined on such a map, is it simply ancestory? For example, what "culture" is the Seattle area defined as on such a map?

And please don't interpret this as a claim that Canada is just an extension of the USA, and therefore inferior to it. I am not saying that. I have a classical view of nationality fixed in my head, and from that point of view the USA and Canada are only separate states, not nations, and certainly not civs.

What is your claim then exactly? You seem to be saying that USA and Canada (or parts of them) are virtually identical and their differences are trivial.

Please do explain what your "classical view of nationality" is. I for one do not know what you mean.

Jim

 

[Pangur Bán]

It could also be because of the high number of Americans that were living there at the time and also the Expansionist tendencies of America at the time. And you must remember that Mexico is also a part of North America and if you suggest that Mexico is just another Canada/US you're going to lose credibility with me.

Mexico differs though because it is clearly foreign to the USA and Canada. A point that you obviously understand.

I think you might mean Englsh colonies here but I'm not sure, I need some clarification.

No, I mean the the US, which started off with only 13 states but came to include 50.

Please do explain what your "classical view of nationality" is. I for one do not know what you mean.

Well, what I mean is the view that nationhood is determined by culture, traditions, etc, but primarily language. This is what it has tended to mean in Europe. If you think that nationality and statehood are the same, you will fail to understand most of post-Napoleonic European history. Why were there Germans, Italians, Greeks, Czechs, etc. before these people had their own state? Why were these states formed? Surely the Greeks were Ottomans; the Italians were Neapolitans, Piedmontese, Tuscan, Austrian, etc; the Germans were Prussian, Bavarian, Austrian, Saxon,etc; the Czechs were Austrian. All this follows from the view that nationhood and statehood are the same.

Of course not they would be a part of the US at that point.

Here is why we will disagree. You think nationhood and statehood are the same; I don't. We're not going to get anywhere unless you refine your personal definitions of nationhood and civilization

 

[jerosen]

Originally posted by Cunobelin Of Hippo
Let's stay on topic, please. Korea is at issue, though I personally can't see why - they're a perfectly legitimate Civ.

You're right. We got way off topic.

Personally I really don't get the point of anyone challenging or disputing the status of another country's right to be one of the civilizations in the game. IMHO its just trolling for a fight.

Jim

 

[Richard III]

This is baffling. I am from Victoria, but have lived in Alberta and the NWT (briefly), Manitoba (for 5 years) and Ontario (for 5 years). I've been to most other provinces several times, and several states across each border. The fact is, BCers, of which I consider myself one, have far more in common with Washingtonians and vice-versa then they do with Manitobans or Ontarians. Ontario and Michigan are culturally indistinguishable.

But who cares?

Korea is OBVIOUSLY different from China - a different CIV, not just country - in several respects. For starters, they have a different alphabet. They were a different kingdom and culture ten centuries ago. Koreans have tended to be significantly more religious than China, embracing Bhuddism long after it waned in China, and Christianity later. Koreans used technology differently than China did, for example, using copper and brass for movable type printing in the 1250s and 1390-1500 period, while China for the most part stuck to woodcut block printing during that period. I could go on; that's just off the top of my head.

R.III

 

[Melanic Sheep]

Originally posted by calgacus



Well, what I mean is the view that nationhood is determined by culture, traditions, etc, but primarily language. This is what it has tended to mean in Europe. If you think that nationality and statehood are the same, you will fail to understand most of post-Napoleonic European history. Why were there Germans, Italians, Greeks, Czechs, etc. before these people had their own state? Why were these states formed? Surely the Greeks were Ottomans; the Italians were Neapolitans, Piedmontese, Tuscan, Austrian, etc; the Germans were Prussian, Bavarian, Austrian, Saxon,etc; the Czechs were Austrian. All this follows from the view that nationhood and statehood are the same.

Allright, point taken. If in order to be seperate nations Canada and the US have to develop seperate languages etc. then we aren't yet. However, We havn't been around for thousands of years yet. When we have been mabey there will be a more distinct difference, In the mean time perhaps we need to change the requirements.

 

[bobgote]

But also, many countries speak different variations of the same language. ie. variations of german etc.
To be perfectly fair, America is not much of a civ in that it doesn't have much of a history, just throw it in with the english civ. This is much more relevant than if Korea is the same as China.

And on the canada topic (I don't care if it's off on a tangent, i want to voice my opinion), I am an Aussie and I can tell you that we see Canada and the US as completely different things. On a whole, the Canadians seem to be a lot more similar to us in humour and outlook on life. Not quite so capitalist crazy and a bit more reasonable. We get many Canadian backpackers over here and they always fit it well, they also have hot chicks!!

America on the other hand, we hate! There is a dislike that goes back a long way, I don't know if it is mutual, but it is strong. I won't go into details here cos i don't want to offend and get kicked out!! And how can you say that the US is so different to mexico? I've been to LA, you can't fool me!! oh and btw, long beach is a farce, nothing like the movies. so there!!

 

[Selous]

hehe ... amen bobgote, i could have written a exact replica of your post

i hate it when someone states that such and such a civ doesnt deserve to be in the game, hasnt acheived enough and so on .... i think more the merrier and hopefully we get a good editor and will be able to ADD new civs rather than having to replace the present ones

 

[bobgote]

you can add civs, i have seen mods that do it, there's a few things u have to change to do it tho. They are too complicated for me to know. If anyone reading this forum knows this stuff, can you please post something?

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

i agree with calgacus.
during the whole 19th century, america claimed canada.
in fact, an annexation bill was passed in 1866 "inviting" the provinces of canada to the union. it was only in the last century
that america relinquished these claims.
detroit/windsor practically constitute the same metropolitan area and that can be said of a lot of other border towns.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by wohmongarinf00l
i agree with calgacus.
during the whole 19th century, america claimed canada.
in fact, an annexation bill was passed in 1866 "inviting" the provinces of canada to the union. it was only in the last century
that america relinquished these claims.
detroit/windsor practically constitute the same metropolitan area and that can be said of a lot of other border towns.

Thank you wohmongarinf00l, someone else!

To keep it on topic, I'd say Korea should be in the game only if another 48 civs were added, including the Welsh and Albanians.

Sorry, only joking.

Fireaxis are entitled to try to make money by including Korea. The good thing is that if they make a decent editor, I can edit them into a civ of more historical importance and have an asian Henry the Navigator.