Why Corean?

[God]

Originally posted by Loopy

Commercial marketing reasons aside, the Americans deserve their own civ because they are dominating an era like any other civs have done. Besides, aren't we all typing in American here (aka crappy English)?

I agree with you. They dominate nowdays, and no matter how jealous the Europeans are, the Americans are in control. I still don't get the people who say that Americans shouldn't be in the game because they weren't around at 4000 BC (FYI nor were any other civs, because the Egyptians came around 3000, and so did India around that time. Forget about all the other European civs. )

 

[stationery2]

It might be a little bit off topic, but there is a theory that says that the Huns actually originated from Korean peninsula.
(You all know who the Huns are right?)
Some evidences like relics and jewlery support this theory, but I'm not sure about that. One thing sure is that the Huns started off in the far east.
Anyway, that was another thing I wanted to say.

 

[stationery2]

Yeah, there could be other civs that can be included in the expension.
I'd like Korea to be included, but there could be others.
I was thinking one of the Southeast asian civs.
There's none in the original right?
And maybe Eskimos if they are considered a civilization.

And about Korea being a big market for games, it is true, but the pirate game is rampant. And the network is so developed, that they can download almost about anything they want.
Starcraft was a gigantic success because basically it was fit for Korean taste (which requires games to be kind of fast-paced) and maybe because of the presence of cd-key, to play on the net.
You know the game Deus-EX? You know how many copies are sold in Korea? less than 100. Of course I'm not saying it is a worst marcket for games. Good games always sell.
Anyway if Firaxis is just looking for commercial reason to include Korea in the game, they might have to think it over.
Otherwise, if they want to include it because of history and achievement, I'd say it's fairly a good choice.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by stationery2
First, anthropologically, Coreans and Chinese are totally different people.
I don't know about chinese, but coreans originated from central asia and share the same root with mongolian, turkish, manchurian etc, but not with chinese . Also, japanese is basically extension of coreans. The japanese royal family is probably a corean descendent.

Very true indeed.

FYI, the Chinese are not a single unified race, but the result of 2200 years of a mixture of different peoples inhabiting the Chinese mainland. We are probably the world's most successful racial integration experiment.

The N Chinese are related to the Koreans, at least. Even today, many Koreans live in Manchuria and mix with the local Chinese.

Corea was around from at least 5000 years ago. About the same age as China or a bit later. The first corean nation verified is called Chosun (they put 'Old' chosun to this nation to differenciate it with later 'chosun', because the later one used the name to claim its originality.) Note that I said 'verified'. There is a chinese record (a legend possiblely) of an ancient nation called Baedal, a corean nation. Coreans still call themselves 'the people of Baedal'. We don't know for sure if this nation existed. You know you can't take legends at a face value. But Since there is a record of it, many people believe that there WAS something, probably a nation built by coreans, but they are not sure what it might have been. (You know, far eastern history is so much distorted because of chinese's pride and japanese trying to hide their past.) Some theories even say that Coreans were actually who built china and when coreans lost in the power struggle, they were forced in the peninsula. Not like Dragon-Knight said in this forum, Goguryo comes much later than Chosun. It's not even second corean state. (of course it's not even third or fourth and so on... I'm not sure.)
This Chosun is believed to have ruled most part of china, korean peninsula, mongolia and southern part of present day russia and even more.
Corea lost much of it's power after that and had to be sort of under china for some time.

Can you substantiate this? I find it extremely hard to believe any Korean state arise before the Chinese and actually rule a part of China.

The first substantial Korean state I know of (I may be wrong) was Koguryo. They drove the Chinese back fr N Korea and established a domain encompassing S Manchuria and N Korea. But Korea as we know it today was formed in the 10-12 centuries AD (I think) during the Koryo period.

Anyway, the point I tired to make was that coreans and chinese are TOTALLY different. Yes, they got influences and buildings look similar. But linguistically, culturally, anthropologically, ethnically, they are totally different.
bobgote, I hope you now know more about the relationship between Corea and China.

My point too. But the Koreans did take up a large portion of Chinese traditions and culture regardless.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by akinkhoo
regarding china's pride distorting history etc....
chinese history record the existance of a state at korea.
"it was a civilized culture with build-up city."
(which I don't see how it serve chinese pride, so I assume it was true)

Chinese pride need not be served by manipulating the history of other nations. We're happy simply by being the longest continuos living civilisation.

why Qin didn't invade korea when his army conquer the northern chinese state?
maybe there was an anicent state with equal power.
maybe the barbaries ownz the land and force Qin to connect the Great Wall...

Cause for the Qin, there wasn't anything in Korea at that time to conquer or threat to neutralize. The real danger was from the Xiongnu and other steppe nomads, in the north.

But the Han later did establish four commanderies in N Korea and ruled till its collapse.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by God

I agree with you. They dominate nowdays, and no matter how jealous the Europeans are, the Americans are in control. I still don't get the people who say that Americans shouldn't be in the game because they weren't around at 4000 BC (FYI nor were any other civs, because the Egyptians came around 3000, and so did India around that time. Forget about all the other European civs. )

i don't think anyone's said that America shouldn't be a civ, just that it has come out of england and other countries and therefore civs of that nature can be included. Of course that's a bit off the topic now. Also it's only recent so it hasn't the history of a nation like korea.

 

[stationery2]

No, the first substantial korean state is definitely not Koguryo.
It come around 37 B.C and the the Old Chosun was around about 3000 years before that.
And about korea ruling china, that's just a theory. And about korea being there before china as well.
It could have been true, it might be a baloony.
But it is certain that the first 'substantial' korean state was Chosun and it was around from 5000 years ago, and it's territory was at least as far as present day beijing.
Kight-Dragon, you're right about the part that Korea as we know now is formed in Koryo period.
Well, to talk about some more history, after Chosun and all its subsidiary collapsed, korea was seperated into many states. In the end, only three of them survived - Kogury, Shila and Baekjae.
Koguryo was the first one to be established, and shila the last.
However, shila was the one who reunited the korea with the alliance of Tang (china). Because shila didn't unite korea by itself, Tang took Koguryo's territoy. (This Koguryo territory comes back later in korean history. A country called Balhae gets the land back, but after they lose it, that part of korea is gone forever. Well at least up to now.)
But Koguryo was probably second strongest Korean state in korean history, after Old Chosun.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Originally posted by Loopy
Do you really think there's that much of a difference in the people between El Paso, Texas and Ciudad Juarez, MX? In terms of language, culture, currency, or even how people dress and look? Or any of the border towns?

El Paso, Texas? No.. But then it's nearer to the border. Is there a distict difference between Mexico City, Mexico and Springfield, Illinois? Oh yeah. You cant just look at the border regions, there's always going to be mixing of cultures there. You need to look at the country as a whole.

I think all these other geographic locales are on topic. People bring up Canada and Mexico because they relate to the American Civ as the Korean relate to the Chinese and Japanese Civs.

Korea relates to China and Japan more like Germany relates to France and Italy...

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by stationery2
No, the first substantial korean state is definitely not Koguryo.
It come around 37 B.C and the the Old Chosun was around about 3000 years before that.

I have started a new thread on Korean history in the History forum here. Let's continue our history discussion there, where we may get further input fr other history-inclined posters.

This is getting away fr Civ3 in any case and I am certainly not wanting PH76 to come after me (after accusing him of spamming in OT) in his forum.