Why did god create...

[Aegis]

Wow, she suffered? I am so sorry.

If I had known that people actually suffer, I wouldn't have said that.

I think my sarcasm detector is broken. I can't tell if you're being facetious or not.

 

[AluminumKnight]

Illogical things tend to... not exist. No matter what scale they're on.

If you rely on pure logic, then you would arrive at the conclusion that God does not/probably does not exist. I'm not contesting that point. In fact, that claim would not upset most Christians. The whole point is that God CAN defy logic.

Logic is really just using our human brains to deduce how/why things are. If God indeed is how he is described, there's absolutely no reason why he would have to follow the rules of logic as we see it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I think my sarcasm detector is broken. I can't tell if you're being facetious or not.

I am being serious about the first, sarcastic about the second.

(Lest I be accused of insensitivity, I will point out that I was not the one who brought up a relative's death to bludgeon anyone with my point.)

I often hear of people who lose their faith because a relative dies - which is hardly logical, were you not aware such things can happen? Especially as it wasn't even your suffering but theirs.

And to actually answer another question from that post, the answer is that what happens to us in this life has an influence on us in the next. Just because someone dies as the result of something doesn't mean it had no other affect on them.

 

[Fifty]

Well, if that is what you say, then my answer is this: God is all-powerful, but He is not omnipotent. He can do everything that can be done, but there are still fundamental underlying rules of existence that He cannot violate. That doesn't mean that He could not eliminate all suffering and evil that exists in the world - He could - but that He could not do so without eliminating the experiences of which those are the result. He cannot overrule the fact that we need both free will and exposure to adversity to grow, and all the things you mentioned are the consequences of those.

And why can't God limit our exposure such that we are subject to less evil than we are now? Obviously we don't need to be able to do every evil to have free will, since we cannot do every evil now, yet we have free will. Why couldn't god have made it such that, say, stealing is the worst evil people do to eachother? Now, I can see the objection coming: but if that were the case, we'd think stealing was as bad as genocide is now! But that objection misses the point. The point isn't how much evil we think there is or know there is, but how much evil there in fact is. Retreats to relativism are not open to the Christian (and are extremely shoddy in the first place, even for a thoughtful non-Christian). Also, why couldn't god have eliminated random, pointless, not-human-caused suffering at least (e.g. infant dies of SIDS, or person gets struck by lightning, or whatever)?

So wacha think about all dat?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, how evil is genocide? What I mean is, what is so bad about sin isn't necessarily how much it hurts the other person (compared to eternity, even a painful death, while it seems great now, is not the most intense thing we will experience) but how much it takes us away from being like God. And without the presence of enough evil to do this, we cannot choose to be good. So stealing would be enough if we didn't have access to genocide.

 

[Swedishguy]

If you rely on pure logic, then you would arrive at the conclusion that God does not/probably does not exist. I'm not contesting that point. In fact, that claim would not upset most Christians. The whole point is that God CAN defy logic.

Logic is really just using our human brains to deduce how/why things are. If God indeed is how he is described, there's absolutely no reason why he would have to follow the rules of logic as we see it.

*takes deep breath*

There is absolutely no reason for god to exist, there is nothing that points to God's existance and God defies logic. And the only thing you have to say is "God doesn't follow the laws of logic". Say, why can't I become the Almighty Master of the Universe? That would be defying all sorts of logic since it's clearly not possible.

Well, ignorance is bliss, I guess.

 

[Den Valdron]

Your sarcasm is noted. I'm sorry that you feel I've been mean to bludgeon your sacharine world view with the harsh realities of people's deaths. You are obviously a victim. I can only hope that this adversity allows you to grow.

Sarcasm!

The truth, however, is that your notion of adversity as a useful growing and developing agency is both ignorant and panglossian. The truth of the matter is that adversity is entirely arbitrary, that it has no purpose, only effects. We are not made to suffer by a benign God who uses this to elevate us. We suffer because crap happens. Adversity has no Nietzchean virtue, what does not kill us does not necessarily make us stronger. Adversity simply is. People deal with it, some grow, some are warped in their growth, some are scarred, some are diminished, some are destroyed and some are killed. There is no particular rhyme or reason, no plan, no choosing. It just happens and we deal with it.

Your answer is no answer. It's merely the diet cola of theological evasion. Just one calory.

 

[Fifty]

Well, how evil is genocide? What I mean is, what is so bad about sin isn't necessarily how much it hurts the other person (compared to eternity, even a painful death, while it seems great now, is not the most intense thing we will experience) but how much it takes us away from being like God.

Ok, so lets call being like god "maximum virtuosity", and being maximally far away from being like god "maximum disvirtuosity". It seems like we do not have the free will to be maximally disvirtuous. That is, there are some actions that are beyond the ability of humans, that are more disvirtuous than the most disvirtuous action we are able to do. That much seems uncontroversially true: actions matter to virtue, not just the formation of intentions. The only way a Christian could escape is by making a wildly implausible claim, namely that all sins are equally bad. That is, to merely form a passing intention to steal a lollipop from a kid is just as bad as brutally murdering thousands of people. That much seems obviously false. It conflicts with our every moral fiber, and doesn't seem well-supported by Christian doctrine either (at least as far as I know it).

Also, you didn't address bad stuff that happens that has nothing to do with human intentions and actions and being-like-godness (such as someone slowly suffering from a disease, or being struck by lightning, or whatever)

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@DV: Well, you don't see the purpose. Clearly then, it doesn't exist.

And I am well aware that people suffer.

You don't have to agree with me, but I don't see how you are completely refuting me. You seem very angry about this subject, though.

@L: Sure, there are degrees to sins, but then I don't believe that "maximum disvirtuosity" is impossible - just out of the reach of most people. And a lesser sin done many times will have an effect not unlike a major one done once.

 

[holy king]

And a lesser sin done many times will have an effect not unlike a major one done once.

so if i steal a lollipop every day of my life i'm almost as bad as a one time murderer?
oh wait, if the murderer repents but i dont i'm even worse, right?

come on...

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Actually, if you refuse to repent you are much worse. That is the point of repentance.

(Well, murder may be a special case. And repentance isn't free.)

 

[MobBoss]

because cancer was here before mankind...

Unprovable.....

 

[Fifty]

@L:

It took me a sec to get that.

Sure, there are degrees to sins, but then I don't believe that "maximum disvirtuosity" is impossible - just out of the reach of most people.

Its not? Imagine a person with plenty of money, plenty of free time, and many years of life. He is also a really really bad dude. He spends his entire life trying to inflict as much suffering as possible on the world. Surely all that that person could do is much less than maximum disvirtuosity. God could have made it much easier (i.e. given us more free will) to do bad: he could have made it such that I could cause people incredible pain just by thinking about it, or made it such that each person had some psychological mechanism whereby hearing certain words caused them extreme pain, or whatever.

And a lesser sin done many times will have an effect not unlike a major one done once.

Sure, but that doesn't answer mah questions!

 

[holy king]

Actually, if you refuse to repent you are much worse. That is the point of repentance.

(Well, murder may be a special case. And repentance isn't free.)

i refuse to repent if i steal a lollipop from a huge supermarket. this is no crime for me... and that should make me worse than a murderer?

 

[philippe]

Unprovable.....

very provable, they found cancer deformation on dinosaur bones.
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=598
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2003/oct/23/dinosaurs.science
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_975839.htm
http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/0704/0704.1912v2.pdf
It got proven.

accept it.

or what are you going to bring as an counter?
dino's lived together with man?
it's all a big ploy of God to test our faith!!!!!111
Lies, all damned lies!

actually, it would be funny, unfortunaly, there are poeple out there who come up with such silly excuses

 

[MobBoss]

According to Christians, only god can create;

I am not so sure of that. While God is the 'creator' I am not so sure he and he alone has the ability to 'create', because its said even Satan and his followers can perform acts and miracles with the intent to deceive.

therefore, god created those things. "Sin" is incapable of any kind of creation, espcially since "sin" is an abstract concept.

Again, I am not so sure your assumption here is correct. Sin does precisely create. Does it not create evil and bad situations?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Its not? Imagine a person with plenty of money, plenty of free time, and many years of life. He is also a really really bad dude. He spends his entire life trying to inflict as much suffering as possible on the world. Surely all that that person could do is much less than maximum disvirtuosity. God could have made it much easier (i.e. given us more free will) to do bad: he could have made it such that I could cause people incredible pain just by thinking about it, or made it such that each person had some psychological mechanism whereby hearing certain words caused them extreme pain, or whatever.

Is that what you think maximal disvirtuosity is? Simply causing as much suffering in another person as they can physically bear is bad, sure, I don't recommend it, but eventually they will die. Given that we have identified God with maximal virtuosity, then the antithesis would be (according to the LDS view) having a sure knowledge of Him, and rejecting Him.

Sure, but that doesn't answer mah questions!

About natural evil? The answer is that again, our ability to deal with outside problems helps us. About the lollipop? See my comments to holy king; it isn't just the act itself but our attitude to it.

i refuse to repent if i steal a lollipop from a huge supermarket. this is no crime for me... and that should make me worse than a murderer?

It is not illegal - that doesn't make it not wrong. And I didn't say it makes you worse than a murderer. All other things being equal, murder is worse than theft. But all other things usually aren't equal.

 

[AluminumKnight]

There is absolutely no reason for god to exist, there is nothing that points to God's existance and God defies logic. And the only thing you have to say is "God doesn't follow the laws of logic". Say, why can't I become the Almighty Master of the Universe? That would be defying all sorts of logic since it's clearly not possible.

Apparently I said "it's clearly not possible according to logic, therefore it must be true" I apologize for this misunderstanding, and hopefully I can clear it up for you.

I'm simply saying that if God does exist in the way he is described, he does defy logic, and logic cannot be used to disprove his existence. I'm not saying "LOLNUB GOD EXISTS," I'm just pointing out the facts.

 

[holy king]

Unprovable.....

it's imminent in aging specialized cells...

 

[Phlegmak]

I am not so sure of that. While God is the 'creator' I am not so sure he and he alone has the ability to 'create', because its said even Satan and his followers can perform acts and miracles with the intent to deceive.



Again, I am not so sure your assumption here is correct. Sin does precisely create. Does it not create evil and bad situations?

Never in my life have I heard anyone say that a creature other than god has the power of creation.

Do you believe that god granted the power of creation to Satan and his followers? Or that they already had it.

And how can sin create anything? Sin can't think. Sin is also completely abstract.