Why do Duns give the guerrilla promotion?

karadoc

AI programmer
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In Civ4, the Guerrilla I promotion gives a defence bonus on hills. It is only available to Archery units and Gunpowder units (and Recon Units).

The Celtic unique building, Dun, grants this promotion for free. (Note, this is not how Gallic Warriors get the promotion.)

I'd like to know if this Dun bonus is actually a good fit for the civilization in terms of real-life history. ie. were Gauls considered to be particular well-trained for defending hills with range weapons?

Spoiler :
The reason I ask is that I'm considering changing the effect of Duns in K-Mod. I'm wondering if should scrap the free Guerrilla promotion to replace it with a more useful bonus of some other kind - perhaps +2xp for melee units. I know very little about history, but the vague impression I get is that Gauls were more fond of melee weapons; and a melee xp bonus would synergise a little with their (weak) unique unit.
 
I think the hilly stuff is more applicable to the Welsh and Scottish Celts and I believe the Celtic Civ is a catch-all for all the Celt tribes.
 
Well, like lymond says- it represents a lot of European people.

From what I've read, no. Perhaps it's a nod to the legendary Welsh Longbowmen.

The Celts were mostly melee fighters, renouned for their size , ferrocity, unpredictability and the momentum of their charges.
Usually armed with shields, long swords, and/or spears.

They used their chariots more to rotate fresh men to the front and wounded to the rear than as fighting platforms.

Of course they were clever enough to use Roman weapons against them whenever captured.
 
I think the ability just sucks. It's one of the worst UBs as it does little beyond making an undesired building desirable in an archer-producing city (Who has those anyways?)

Guerilla is awesome on the offense, but archery units aren't.
 
Guerilla is awesome on the offense, but archery units aren't.

It also works with musketmen and (if you avoid rifling) grenadiers.

Or just build longbows and upgrade to riflemen - it's pretty nice on them.

Still a below average UB, but it does have its uses.
 
Oh, right, Musketmen. Forgot about those. Of course they work excellently with it.

I've always won before muskets with Brennus...
 
GIIICRIII Gallics make pretty darn good Rifles too or Gren ;)
 
Perhaps if you extended it to melee units. The only connection between celts and hills I know of is the battle of Alesia or somesuch, where the gauls were both defending and attacking the hill against a roman donut.
Well, the Gallic Warriors currently get Guerrilla I regardless of what the Dun does, so I guess that's kind of covered already. (Also, it would be difficult to give the Guerrilla promotion to all melee units anyway, because it would require some special new game mechanics to allow buildings to give promotions to units which usually aren't allowed to have those promotions.)

I thought it was a reference to Scott's ability to escape into highlands.
Therefore, they are more difficult to kill on their native terrain.
I think that's probably is what the developers had in mind. But I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning. The way I see it, in any given game of Civ4, the Celts may or may not live in the highlands; and the game mechanics are such that whoever does live in hilly areas in the game will already have some combat advantages regardless of whether they get Guerrilla I for free. So I see the homeland highlands related advantages as being a trait of the geography of the world rather than a trait of the civilization itself. (Similarly, I wouldn't agree with giving Russians some kind of combat benefit in tundra & ice.)

Perhaps it's a nod to the legendary Welsh Longbowmen.
Perhaps, but if that was the intention then I think it that a longbow unique unit would have been more appropriate.

The Celts were mostly melee fighters, renouned for their size , ferrocity, unpredictability and the momentum of their charges.
Usually armed with shields, long swords, and/or spears.
That agrees with my vague impressions; which is why I was thinking +2xp for melee units might be a sensible alternative. (It would be a more powerful benefit, and probably just as suited to the flavour of the civ.)
 
I think that's probably is what the developers had in mind. But I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning. The way I see it, in any given game of Civ4, the Celts may or may not live in the highlands; and the game mechanics are such that whoever does live in hilly areas in the game will already have some combat advantages regardless of whether they get Guerrilla I for free. So I see the homeland highlands related advantages as being a trait of the geography of the world rather than a trait of the civilization itself. (Similarly, I wouldn't agree with giving Russians some kind of combat benefit in tundra & ice.)

I'm not sure I agree with this. I don' think the random land determines a civs strength or flavor. The flavor should be inherent to the Civ. It may not always suit the immediate random land, but that does not mean it does not add some benefit, especially fighting in foreign land. Same goes for the Woody Aztecs. And these particular "flavor" promos that Celts and Aztecs get do more than just provide certain land bonus. The healing from quick Woody III is always good anywhere and the 50% withdrawal from GIII is quite powerful anywhere. (I like the fact that the game provides Civs with a certain flavor, whether terrain related or not, and then you adapt to whatever situation you find yourself in map wise)

The question whether hilly stuff is the right "flavor" for Celts is debatable. If the Civ4 Celts where given a more Welsh/Scots/Gaelic flavor, i.e., Welsh Longbow or Pictish Warrior then I think it would have been more straightforward. Instead, the Celts are kind of a mishmash of traits from the various tribes. With Gallics really not fitting that hilly flavor. Is the right or wrong? Not sure. Welsh Longbowman would have been cool though. Not sure if the developers made a mistake in including the Celts vs. more established Celtic nations like Welsh, Scot and Irish instead of also incorporating a group that evolved into what we know as the French. Celts at that point were really nothing more than a group of distinct barbarian tribes that gradually evolved their own identity, becoming nations. I think the Celts are pretty awesome though.

Maybe instead of changing the hilly stuff, you change the UU. It'd be kinda cool to have the Welsh Longbowman (with free Guerilla and extra first strikes). The Dun could still provide the Guerrilla promo, but this time only to Melee units. Now that is some synergy. (Heck, there is no Longbow UU anyway) Maybe to make Dun a little better, include a small reduce city maintenance like the Ikhanda (say 10%)

(edit: I realize you probably would not change the UU, since the purpose of your Mod is not to make such drastic gameplay changes)
 
As far as I know (and my history is no better than amateur) the Celts (and the Gauls), as natives of Germany and France respectively, actually had quite a lot of rough, hilly terrain to fight on, and yes, the city of Alesia was located on top of a large hill. However, I think that's beside the point.

Remember that the game only uses absolutes like 'hills' or 'guerrilla' as generalizations; a tile with a hill isn't literally a big hill in a square, it's an area of terrain that could be considered hilly, whether it's many small hills, a few large ones, or anything in between, even (in the case of Alesia) one actual great big hill.

Likewise, the promotion 'Guerrilla' doesn't -literally- make you harder to kill when you're in hilly terrain; it represents guerrilla combat, which itself is irregulars or militia (civilian fighting forces) that make heavy use of surprise tactics, like ambushing and raiding. This form of warfare is ancient, and the Celts were -excellent- at it, as were the Gauls. (Most English/Scottish people can trace their lineage to Celts or Gauls who settled on the British Isles. The Scots also fared well in guerrilla combat against the English during the Scottish Wars of Independence, in the 14th century.) Think like the Vietnam War, but with less jungles and more highlands: high-momentum ambushes that charge through downhill forests; spearmen and archers hiding in trees while scouts watch from nearby cliffs, all at dramatically variable elevation; traps everywhere, deadfalls and avalanches, from rolling timber to rolling stones, forest fires, dammed rivers; local forces who don't do well in a pitched battle, but who excel at skirmishing, attacking the flanks or rear of a force and retreating to the cover of the terrain they know so well; never knowing how numerous your enemy is, or where he is waiting, or when he plans to attack, because intelligence is easy when your army is an army, but much more difficult when it's a civilian populace. Guerrilla warfare (there's a great Wikipedia article on it) was also really common for the Aztecs, even most Mesoamerican tribes throughout history really, which might also explain their bonuses in forests.

The point is, the defense advantage (to me) represents the local knowledge of the terrain that the native Celts (and Gauls) had over the Roman invaders, and the advantages they were able to bring to bear against them, and most of those advantages were in the form of surprise, as is the nature of guerrilla warfare. Again, you need only look to the Viet Cong to see how the ancient Celts would have defended their homeland from the Romans.

At least, that's what I figure.

By the way, historically, a dun was basically a well-defended settlement usually built into a hill or rocky area for added protection. If you've ever seen Braveheart, and seen those Scots living in their thatch huts built into rocky outcroppings and grassy hills, imagine a community of those surrounded by semi-natural walls of dirt and stone, several feet high. That's the sort of community most Celts/Gauls were raised in, so an intimate knowledge of the terrain was something that happened almost naturally, like the knowledge of how to use a computer comes to us. That's why the duns provide guerrilla expertise.
 
Perhaps, but if that was the intention then I think it that a longbow unique unit would have been more appropriate.

That agrees with my vague impressions; which is why I was thinking +2xp for melee units might be a sensible alternative. (It would be a more powerful benefit, and probably just as suited to the flavour of the civ.)

Yes, a Welsh longbow UU might be cool.
As for the Dun.... some kind of melee bonus or promotion. Among woodsman, shock, first strike chance, withdrawal chance, or points, well... I suppose there's lots of ways to characterize them , and lots of advatages which might be more fun to play. As for balance, I have no clue.
 
I'd rather you'd give the Dun a nonlinear effect. This was where the original Dun shone; although poorly executed, its bonus was not for its UU.
 
I think people are focusing too much on the dun and gaulish warriors being good at fighting on hills. I think its more so that they are guerilla warriors. It just happens that the guerilla warrior effect is fighting better from hills. I think that's what they were trying for though, not hill fighting for the celts, but guerilla fighting in general.
 
Well... Celts really weren't guerilla warriors. But it gives the kind of "freedom!" effect Celtic nations are given in pop cultural history games.
 
Question, though, Karadoc. +2 XP for melee units would certainly be an improvement, but would it make the Dun worth building? To me, half of the reason why the Dun's awful is because it's on a building no one wants to get anyway. So unless you're planning some changes in the next version of K-Mod to make Walls more viable, I'm not sure if it'd be too much of an improvement.

What if it replaced the Barracks, instead? So it swapped out the city defense bonuses for the +2 XP you're suggesting, while still keeping the free Guerilla promotion. You could possibly even have it confer a free City Raider I promotion on Melee units (and with Boudica, free Combat I, Guerilla I and CR I makes the Gallic Warriors suddenly more attractive), though that might be excessive. You could also have it retain the 2x building speed with Stone, as a nice if perhaps mostly trivial boost.

I think that would retain and even expand on the Celts' "barbarian" flavour while making them a bit more competitive.
 
There is already a Barracks UB. Duplicate replacements happen, but are generally to be avoided imo.
 
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