Why does AI put fort on resources?

[shulec]

The AI regularly puts a fort on resources near borders. What is the benefit?

 

[Jerrymander]

Forts give you the resource (you gain the health/happy/strategic bonus) without needing the specific improvement.

 

[Dresden]

If a resource is in your territory but not in the radius (i.e. BFC) of one of your cities, forts are useful because (as Jerrymander said) they provide access to the resource and at the same time provide a defensive bonus to any units you station there to protect the resource.

 

[CCRunner]

I wish they wouldn't though because forts take a significantly longer time to build.

 

[BerserkerCR3]

...though in my second last game it was a bad decision I think (can't remember the maths now) since I came walking through the forest with almost only CR3 Swords and Cats. I got the City Raider bonus when attacking the Fort and had above 50%.

 

[Silbeg]

my bigger beef on this one is that if you have automated workers (yeah, I know what you are going to say), they will put a fort on top of a developed resource, even if you have "workers leave improvements" checked.

Quite annoying... and I didn't see this before 3.17

 

[Supr49er]

Building a Fort on oil outside your BFC as soon as you research Scientific Method actually is a good move.
It gives you access to oil the second you research Combustion without having to wait for a well to be built, plus it makes your oil more defensible.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Silbeg, I never noticed that happening and I use Automated workers a lot (huge maps, domination vics ). If it does happen, then the developed resource was outside of any city's BFC so it didn't matter anyway. I've never seen a worked resource within the city BFC to be changed to a fort even when allowing workers to override improvements. That sounds like either a bug or a freak occurrence.

Supr49er beat me to it, LoL. Oil is the one thing that forts rock for because you can potentially see the oil several hundred turns before you can use it. Any oil within BFC is immediately converted to have Wells instead of a fort by all available workers since it provides buku production bonus (especially with RR)

 

[Wolfshanze]

Forts on resources (outside the BFC) may be a favorite of the AI, but for the human I consider it a huge waste of time/effort.

It takes much longer to build a fort then an improvement, and I usually have two types of troops... city garrisons, and marching armies... I generally don't have time to have guards posted at every resource outside the BFC across my empire. Marching armies should be destroying enemy armies before they get to my resources, and/or I'll have some sort of defensive line going to prevent the enemy from getting into my empire if at all possible, so trying just to hold one tile with a resource seems silly in my view... and since it takes so long to build a fort over an improvement, it's a time killer... I have better things to do with my workers.

If I need a resource that is outside my BFC, I just slap the improvement on it... unless it just-so-happens to lie exactly where I was planning a defensive fort line to begin with (and those are rare, few and far between too).

 

[digitCruncher]

You guys are missing the point about forts...

Forts are harder to bomb. They are harder to pillage with spies. They are harder to capture (generally) with units. They do NOT give the enemy defensive bonuses.

If you aren't going to gain any food/production/commerce bonus... then there is no point in having the appropiate improvement.

Now... the only reason you should build an improvement outside a BFC is if you are low on workers, and need to squeeze every last worker turn out of your poor workers. Otherwise, Forts are superior in every aspect to regular improvements. Live with it.

 

[MyOlde]

So let me try to get this straight (I'm an old geezer so bear with me): the auto worker will build a fort only on those resources outside the BFC? And those forts are better than improving the resource (mine, well, quarry)? If so I've been wasting a lot of time dragging my workers around and re-improving the resources to get rid of forts.

Forts: they defend even when there's no military unit in it?
Forts: if I put my military unit in an enemy fort it receives no defence bonus?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Well, if you plan on slapping down a city near those resources, then you aren't wasting time, you're preparing .

Forts:
1) They do not defend without a unit.

2) Military units get a defense bonus akin to that of a city plus whatever terrain bonuses and fortify bonuses.

 

[Wolfshanze]

You guys are missing the point about forts...

Actually, I think you're missing the point and doing the same thing the idiotic AI does... waste time and effort... just because the AI does it doesn't make it a sound strategy.

Forts are harder to bomb. They are harder to pillage with spies. They are harder to capture (generally) with units.

This only applies if you're going to have your own troops standing around twiddling thumbs in the fort... an empty fort does nothing for you other then what an improvement would do... give you access to the resource for building or trading purposes. Forts do nothing for counter-espionage... only spies and counter-intelligence agencies (or dumb luck) make it harder. If you're really worried about sabotage, stick a spy on the resource, not a fort.

If you aren't going to gain any food/production/commerce bonus... then there is no point in having the appropriate improvement.

I could say the exact same thing about a fort.

Now... the only reason you should build an improvement outside a BFC is if you are low on workers, and need to squeeze every last worker turn out of your poor workers. Otherwise, Forts are superior in every aspect to regular improvements. Live with it.

If you don't have better things for your workers to do then build useless monuments to man's stupidity (fixed fortifications), then you've already wasted your time and resources building too many workers in the first place. The only purpose to building a fort (which takes a lot longer to build then an improvement which ALSO collects the resource just the same for a shorter investment) is so that you can assign some soldiers to the fort to stand around and twiddle their thumbs to protect something you shouldn't be letting the AI do in the first place, get inside your empire to your resources... if those soldiers were on the front line instead of inside your empire guarding some stone walls in a tower, then maybe the enemy wouldn't be marauding your resources.

Forts in-and-of-themselves are re-active, as opposed to pro-active, and anyone who builds them on a resource outside a BFC that isn't actually part of a defensive line on the border of your empire has just wasted time, effort, resources and is preparing themselves for further mis-use of their troops... live with it!

 

[Welnic]

Well, if you plan on slapping down a city near those resources, then you aren't wasting time, you're preparing .

Forts:
1) They do not defend without a unit.

2) Military units get a defense bonus akin to that of a city plus whatever terrain bonuses and fortify bonuses.

They don't get the defensive bonus if the fort is not in their culture boundaries. Actually I'm not sure about neutral forts. If a fort is in your cultural boundary then you get the defensive bonus, but if the enemy takes the fort they do not get any bonus.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Ur right, but you don't get the resource if it's in neutral territory anyway. I'm not sure why we'd address this issue with regard to forts NOT in your borders since you don't get the resource from that.

 

[Crighton]

I play a lot of later starts, so forts aren't quite as useless as most of the above discussions.

First up: you can build them on otherwise useless desert tiles, making a useless square somewhat functional.

Second: one of the truly great things about forts is that you can station 4 aircraft in them, plus untold cruise missles & tac nukes. This can give a huge advantage in flexibility when it comes to invading your neighbors. I've taken to the habit of putting 8 bombers in the cities with air fields in them and leaving four planes in strategically placed forts (not in the BFC unless on a useless desert tile) using the fighters to be the air cover for the cities since they do have a nice operational range and realistically can cover multiple cities.

Thirdly: one of the most usefull functions of the forts is that if they're coastal you can station your navy in them, and once in a while you can string forts next to eachother to basically act as a canal across a narrow spec of landmass (the most I've ever bothered to do this with was two forts since I had a LARGE inland sea I was making use of to built up my navy, I also had some left over workers I needed to put to work) .

 

[Silbeg]

Silbeg, I never noticed that happening and I use Automated workers a lot (huge maps, domination vics ). If it does happen, then the developed resource was outside of any city's BFC so it didn't matter anyway. I've never seen a worked resource within the city BFC to be changed to a fort even when allowing workers to override improvements. That sounds like either a bug or a freak occurrence.

You are right that it isn't happening in any city's BFC, but it is definitely happening outside. I would disagree that it doesn't matter, since it is really annoying to improve plots that will feed a new city, to have the AI go and replace the farm/mine/well/whatever with a fort, and then you have to grab some workers to re-improve the plots.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Well, I figure if i'm automated, my empire is beyond micromanaging the workers anyway (and any unworked city tiles really aren't making much of a difference), so I'll just have a few go to the new city and hit "automate city improvements" and i'm done with it.

 

[mrt144]

Actually, I think you're missing the point and doing the same thing the idiotic AI does... waste time and effort... just because the AI does it doesn't make it a sound strategy.



This only applies if you're going to have your own troops standing around twiddling thumbs in the fort... an empty fort does nothing for you other then what an improvement would do... give you access to the resource for building or trading purposes. Forts do nothing for counter-espionage... only spies and counter-intelligence agencies (or dumb luck) make it harder. If you're really worried about sabotage, stick a spy on the resource, not a fort.



I could say the exact same thing about a fort.



If you don't have better things for your workers to do then build useless monuments to man's stupidity (fixed fortifications), then you've already wasted your time and resources building too many workers in the first place. The only purpose to building a fort (which takes a lot longer to build then an improvement which ALSO collects the resource just the same for a shorter investment) is so that you can assign some soldiers to the fort to stand around and twiddle their thumbs to protect something you shouldn't be letting the AI do in the first place, get inside your empire to your resources... if those soldiers were on the front line instead of inside your empire guarding some stone walls in a tower, then maybe the enemy wouldn't be marauding your resources.

Forts in-and-of-themselves are re-active, as opposed to pro-active, and anyone who builds them on a resource outside a BFC that isn't actually part of a defensive line on the border of your empire has just wasted time, effort, resources and is preparing themselves for further mis-use of their troops... live with it!

What about using forts for aircraft storage beyond what your cities can store?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^Excellent point. And what about a fort that is protecting your only source of oil which isn't on your main continent? That's happened to me before. The city was placed amongst tundra and ice just to claim the oil. Forget building a well there, I put a fort and 5 or 6 well promoted units to protect it!