Why does chopping a jungle produce nothing?

[bcaiko]

Hello all -

So, after (yet another) all jungle start, I'm curious if anyone has any theories why chopping jungle provides nothing akin to chopping down forest (which takes less time to tech to and takes less time for your worker to accomplish)? It seems nonsensical to me.

Even if jungle doesn't produce production from chopping, why not a food infusion? Or a tiny bit of culture? The current difference between forest and jungle chopping seems to me to be a relic of legacy game design choices that have long since been left in the dust bin.

 

[GWashington]

I think there's already been a topic on this, but I agree it makes no sense that chopping down a jungle gives no hammers. I hope Firaxis fixes/changes this, it would make a lot more sense.

 

[chazzycat]

probably because temperate forests just make for much better lumber. These forests tend to be dominated by 1 large species so you know exactly what you're getting...you can literally chop down some forest and build entire towns out of it (I am from Redwood country where this is exactly what happened). Whereas jungles could have hundreds of different species, many of which are not suitable for building stuff.

In the real world, the main purpose of clearing jungle is to make more space for cultivating food, not to build stuff. I think this is represented pretty well in civ.

 

[Abraxis]

Because that's how they balanced it? They probably wanted to differentiate the different bioms to add variety to the game.

Real world explanations... I'm no logger, but forests are pretty easy to navigate and process en masse. Jungles... Just look at any population chart, the Amazon and Congo are dead-zones. I would imagine the density and competitiveness of non-human life in them makes them rather hostile and may seriously cut into profit margins of prospecting loggers. Also the soft, moist soil probably impedes heavy machinery.

 

[tat501]

Doesn't chopping a jungle turn it into plains rather than grassland. So you get an extra hammer throughout the length of the game by chopping it which more than makes up for it.

I agree though - trees are trees and lumber is lumber. You should gain an immediate production benefit from having all that lumber on hand and having a huge space of open land cleared in that way.

 

[joncnunn]

I'm not aware of any version of civ that has given hammers from jungle. There were some earlier versions that clearing it turned it into plains.
With the science bonus with a University though, it's much better to trade post jungle unless you really need the food as trade post keeps jungle intact.

 

[chazzycat]

trees are trees and lumber is lumber.

I don't think it's that simple. Construction projects (like building a house) typically aren't built out of the kind of wood that comes from jungles. That type of wood is used more for furniture & stuff (to the best of my knowledge).

Plus in a square mile of jungle there might be a hundred species of trees. You lose all economies of scale, as opposed to clear cutting a thousand pine trees or whatever.

 

[tat501]

I don't think it's that simple. Construction projects (like building a house) typically aren't built out of the kind of wood that comes from jungles. That type of wood is used more for furniture & stuff (to the best of my knowledge).

Plus in a square mile of jungle there might be a hundred species of trees. You lose all economies of scale, as opposed to clear cutting a thousand pine trees or whatever.

But you get lots of goods/industrial products from jungle/rainforest. Their not cut down simply to graze cattle on - but even if they were one could argue that that is worth a production boost. Chemicals, industrial solvents, drugs etc are all gained from removing jungle IRL.

 

[chazzycat]

I'm sure some useful stuff is gleaned from clearing jungles. The question is, is it on a scale worthy of counting for something in Civ? I am willing to bet, that if you clear cut an acre of temperate forest, and a acre of jungle, the amount of usable construction-grade lumber from the temperate forest would be orders of magnitude larger than the jungle. I could be wrong about this, but doubt it.

It's true that jungles are very useful for research purposes (finding new drugs like you mention) but this is represented by the extra science in jungles with a university. More is gained from studying the biodiversity, rather than killing it.

 

[tat501]

I'm sure some useful stuff is gleaned from clearing jungles. The question is, is it on a scale worthy of counting for something in Civ? I am willing to bet, that if you clear cut an acre of temperate forest, and a acre of jungle, the amount of usable construction-grade lumber from the temperate forest would be orders of magnitude larger than the jungle. I could be wrong about this, but doubt it.

It's true that jungles are very useful for research purposes (finding new drugs like you mention) but this is represented by the extra science in jungles with a university. More is gained from studying the biodiversity, rather than killing it.

Fair points.

 

[neoaspilet11]

well in reality, when clearing a jungle you get shrubs, bushes, snakes, insects etc. not really of economic value. Clearing a forest gives you lumber plus maybe monkeys for sale.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

well in reality, when clearing a jungle you get shrubs, bushes, snakes, insects etc. not really of economic value. Clearing a forest gives you lumber plus maybe monkeys for sale.

In fact, it is so useless people don't bother to chop it in real life, they just set it on fire and wait.

 

[Barghaest]

Actually added hammers to jungle in my mod, it provides the same as forest while still taking twice as long to clear. Honestly, jungle still provides useful lumber otherwise they wouldn't be clear-cutting rainforests so much.

 

[joncnunn]

Actually added hammers to jungle in my mod, it provides the same as forest while still taking twice as long to clear. Honestly, jungle still provides useful lumber otherwise they wouldn't be clear-cutting rainforests so much.

That's not the main reason they are clear-clearing it in Brazil; instead its to plant farms. (Clear cutting when done for lumber production purposes is followed by planting seeds to new trees so that in a few years you can chop it again for more lumber.)

 

[KmDubya]

Except for a few exotic hardwoods like teak, jungles do not produce any worthwhile timber and are full of mosquitos, diseases and other undesirable elements.. People clear cut jungles to make something useful out of the land such as agriculture or grazing. When the jungle is also swampy it is basically worthless as the cost of clearing it goes up dramatically and it then needs to be drained or filled to clear the swamp. In real life this is not done except in a rare case like the Panama Canal which was a real engineering feat.

Getting two food from unimproved jungle is pretty unrealistic and the bonus science from jungles is just political correct paganism. Where are the high tech jungle cities in real life?

 

[Barghaest]

Except for a few exotic hardwoods like teak, jungles do not produce any worthwhile timber and are full of mosquitos, diseases and other undesirable elements.. People clear cut jungles to make something useful out of the land such as agriculture or grazing. When the jungle is also swampy it is basically worthless as the cost of clearing it goes up dramatically and it then needs to be drained or filled to clear the swamp. In real life this is not done except in a rare case like the Panama Canal which was a real engineering feat.

Getting two food from unimproved jungle is pretty unrealistic and the bonus science from jungles is just political correct paganism. Where are the high tech jungle cities in real life?

Valid points. Still I feel you'd get enough for the effort to supply some production (which is why I added it). The lack of production (plus the science from universities) for Civ 5 is probably to prevent people from just clearing out all the jungle to make farms (AI still does this quite a bit, to my annoyance, I try to retain as much of the original landscape as possible when I play Civ 5 even when playing a rabid warmonger like the Huns).

Oddly enough, they gave nothing to prevent people from clearing every marsh in existence, so I streamlined University bonuses to cover more terrains/features/resources (by reducing Jungle to +1 science and adding it to things like Marsh and Ice so more of the world can eventually be worked in really long games).
Still somewhat unrealistic, but there are research stations in subarctic regions and diverse terrains such as swamps and oases do provide valuable scientific insights (perhaps the person who added all the science to Jungles really liked the movie Medicine Man...)

 

[LoneRebel]

Funny, 'cause I thought that tropical hardwoods like teak and mahogany were some of the most desirable? Although that said I still prefer not to cut down jungle in-game and save them for the science bonus.

Getting two food from unimproved jungle is pretty unrealistic and the bonus science from jungles is just political correct paganism. Where are the high tech jungle cities in real life?

So we should just cut down all the jungles in the world, eh?

 

[Barghaest]

Funny, 'cause I thought that tropical hardwoods like teak and mahogany were some of the most desirable?

Most desirable usually mean luxury and not fodder for general production, unfortunately... so that doesn't help the argument for them providing hammers.

 

[Zenstrive]

There should be an improvement in Fertilizer tech: Sawit (palm oil) plantation that can only be build in jungle and add 1 food+1 happiness, since palm oils are usually build in swampy areas and is ingredient in many food and cosmetic stuffs.

 

[Aspen28570]

Why not just have it give you a small sum of gold when cleared instead of hammers. The mohogany and teak while not great for making houses with, could be sold to third parties.

The gold bonus would not be that much between 15-40 gold per hex.