Why does chopping a jungle produce nothing?

[Abraxis]

Jungle bioms already have a gold bonus in the way of high volumes of gold producing luxuries, and being ideal locations for trade post spam. If you're saying that's imbalanced and jungle bioms need even more gold then, well, I'd like to hear your argument for that, but it sounds to me like you guys aren't thinking this through and just want things cause... cause.

 

[Ornen]

Most desirable usually mean luxury and not fodder for general production, unfortunately... so that doesn't help the argument for them providing hammers.

What if there were a Civ from somewhere jungle-oriented that got a special bonus from rare, desirable woods from the jungle such as Teak and Brazilwood? Oh wait...

 

[Light Cleric]

Jungle bioms already have a gold bonus in the way of high volumes of gold producing luxuries, and being ideal locations for trade post spam. If you're saying that's imbalanced and jungle bioms need even more gold then, well, I'd like to hear your argument for that, but it sounds to me like you guys aren't thinking this through and just want things cause... cause.

The real annoyance I have with Jungles is they can be incredibly annoying to deal with in the early game if your luxuries are covered in Jungle, to the point that it's often worth it to move your capital a very significant distance(but keeping some Jungle for Education later). Getting a Jungle-coated start with a handful of Spices and Sugar makes it real hard to get any kind of production going in the early game when you need it, and the luxuries require you to go down to Bronze Working and clear the jungle itself before your Worker can work on the actual luxury. It would seem like a great place to build The Pyramids except for the aforementioned production problem.

They're amazing tiles mid to late game, but they suuuuuck early on.

All that being said, I don't think they really need to give a production bonus for being chopped; I would prefer for it to be easier to remove or not spawn on ALL your luxuries and screw your early game/force you settle on a luxury.

well in reality, when clearing a jungle you get shrubs, bushes, snakes, insects etc. not really of economic value. Clearing a forest gives you lumber plus maybe monkeys for sale.

Anyone else really wanting a social policy equivalent of the Exploration finisher that reveals Hidden Monkey Sites in tiles that had a forest before?

 

[megabearsfan]

Getting two food from unimproved jungle is pretty unrealistic and the bonus science from jungles is just political correct paganism. Where are the high tech jungle cities in real life?

The research on jungles has nothing to do with paganism or spiritual/supernatural beliefs. It represents the study of plants and animals in jungles. The huge diversity of life and ecosystems in jungles provides lots of opportunity for study. This models several elements of scientific progress:

1.) Darwin's observations of the diversity of species that lead to his theory of evolution by natural selection and which has informed all of modern biology.
2.) Development of industrial chemicals and products (many plastics and rubbers come from jungles).
3.) Herbal studies that lead the pharmaceuticals, vaccines, and other biotech.
4.) Anthropological studies of aboriginal populations and animals in their native habitat.
5.) Study of tropical climate and weather patterns, which influences global weather patterns.

and so on...

If the designers had intended to implement "politically correct paganism", then there are game mechanics to handle that: jungles would provide culture and/or faith.

 

[HerrDoktor]

Jungles are just forests in tropical lands. The trees don't have rings because the seasons are less marked, but it doesn't make them less or more rigid. Tropical woods include some very prized hardwoods as teak, mahogany and ironwood. The problem for logging is that, while temperate forests are commonly dominated by a single species, tropical forests have lots of ones, so you don't actually "chop" the jungle, just pick some select trees.

If you want to be really P.I., you could justify a "charcoal" bonus in production by chopping the jungle Or charcoal camps, which would be actually useful. Charcoal is actually better for steel production than mineral coal, so the bonus for middle ages would be actually in production, not science. Only there's no reason that camp couldn't be made on a regular forest as well.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Jungles are just forests in tropical lands

No they aren't, I learned this in the civ4 forum argument on this exact topic. A jungle is not a tropical forest, it is an impassable thicket of vegetation at ground level. There are no trees of value to a carpenter in jungle.

 

[bcaiko]

Because that's how they balanced it? They probably wanted to differentiate the different bioms to add variety to the game.

The problem is that it's not balanced. And all Jungle start is easily one of the most (if not the most) handicapping start in the game.

You can't farm until you cut down the jungle (and for your trouble you get plains, not grassland), you can't get to your luxuries unless you cut down the jungle, and you can't otherwise improve a jungle tile until Guilds or Education. But you get NOTHING for chopping the jungle and it takes an extra tech to get to the point where you can you chop them.

Gameplay wise, that's pretty unbalanced compared to forests.

Most desirable usually mean luxury and not fodder for general production, unfortunately... so that doesn't help the argument for them providing hammers.

I know folks have focused on hammers, but in the original post and alternative such as culture is suggested. Someone later suggested gold. Even if hammers is unrealistic, something could be given.

The game has changed. Tile yields have changed. Mechanics have changed. The tech tree has changed drastically. The legacy decisions involving jungle tiles merit reevaluation.

 

[HerrDoktor]

No they aren't, I learned this in the civ4 forum argument on this exact topic. A jungle is not a tropical forest, it is an impassable thicket of vegetation at ground level. There are no trees of value to a carpenter in jungle.

"Thicket" was what the original Sanskrit term "jangala" meant. The British then assumed that the whole of tropical forests would be that way, impassable, but actually they aren't. Thickets form nearby rivers, swamps or mangroves, but not in the middle of the jungle. I've been through some tropical rainforests, there's actually space between trees, the ground is mostly dead leaves, not closed shrubs and vines. You don't need a machete to walk everywhere.

Second, "no trees of value" is a gross generalization. There are mahogany, jacaranda, brazilwood, ironwood, ebony, lots of others, which are exploited and cause preservation concerns today. In sum, yes, jungles are logged.

It's just that not all trees are workable, so you can't just chop everything and expect to have a ship. I'm not saying jungles can be used exactly as temperate forests. But saying that nothing productive can come from them is just wrong. It sounds like something you would hear from a 19th century colonial European.

In the other hand, having science from jungles in the Middle Ages is just ridiculous. Even today, what can actually be learned from them is a bit overrated, mostly preservationist propaganda trying to make them appear like a "treasure" as valuable as oil or minerals. Of course they should be preserved and studied, but they aren't a source of tropical Watsons and Cricks. If it was like Civ, tropical countries would have cured cancer by 1500.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

"Thicket" was what the original Sanskrit term "jangala" meant. The British then assumed that the whole of tropical forests would be that way, impassable, but actually they aren't. Thickets form nearby rivers, swamps or mangroves, but not in the middle of the jungletropical forest. I've been through some tropical rainforests which are not jungle, there's actually space between trees, the ground is mostly dead leaves, not closed shrubs and vines. You don't need a machete to walk everywhere.

Jungle is jungle, forest is forest. Agreed there is too much jungle near the equator, making tropical starts very hard. Replacing about half of them with forests would make jungle start bias much more bearable.

 

[milk steak]

Chopping jungle should give a one-time food or gold boost. Not a large quantity, but maybe 6 food or 15 gold for a hex next to a city.

 

[reddishrecue]

Chopping a jungle doesn't produce anything since it doesn't provide any wood for fires or production for a city, but instead give food for those who are more suitable to live in a jungle. Forests on the other hand, do provide wood but don't provide the extra food that jungles provide. At least jungles give a defense bonus to military units stationed in them.

 

[Hpuk]

While you can certainly make some real world arguments to support the lack of production, it is quite a large balance issue. Jungle is a horrible start, slow movement, slow to chop, slow to build on, slow to tech to the techs that enable chopping or improving them.
Even if they gave the small 20 max hammer bonus that chopping regular forests does, they would still be vastly inferior to any other normal start.

There's only so many citizens you can afford to not keep on food/production tiles, and usually most of them are better off as specialists.

 

[bcaiko]

While you can certainly make some real world arguments to support the lack of production, it is quite a large balance issue. Jungle is a horrible start, slow movement, slow to chop, slow to build on, slow to tech to the techs that enable chopping or improving them.
Even if they gave the small 20 max hammer bonus that chopping regular forests does, they would still be vastly inferior to any other normal start.

There's only so many citizens you can afford to not keep on food/production tiles, and usually most of them are better off as specialists.

Thanks for the well reasoned thoughts.

 

[LoneRebel]

Some people here are making a distinction between jungle and tropical forest, and there may be a distinction, but does the game make such a distinction? That's the important part.

I used to think that any forest located on the tropics would become a jungle tile, but now that I think about it, I do see jungle and forest at the same latitudes in-game, so I guess we can say that the game does make a distinction.

Anyhow, technical distinctions aside, most laypeople use "jungle" and "tropical rainforest" interchangeably. The truth is that not all tropical forests are impassable thickets at ground level - in fact, quite the opposite, the canopy formed by trees blocks so much sunlight from reaching ground level that few plants can grow there.

 

[NukeAJS]

Part of Brazil's UA should include production from chopping jungle and faster worker build times in jungle. As it stands right now, Brazil's start-bias is a massive liability for the first 120 turns unless you're lucky enough to be put on the edge of a jungle.

Also, those that have pointed out that plains have a hammer ... I'll take a grassland tile 98% of the time.