Why does everyone hate CIV5?

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Let me ask other Defenders: do you also think that the only difference between Strategy and Tactics is about semantics? Open question; answer it or ignore it. I am truly interested in knowing if that is a "common" understanding among you.

As an "other defender" I'll answer: according to Wikipedia, semantics is the study of meaning. These two words have different meanings, so the difference between them is about semantics :) (But I don't get how this question relates to our discussion ;))
 
this is interesting...

The fact that a Defender thinks that the difference between Strategy and Tactics is only semantics, may explain soooo much of this heated debate...

Let me ask other Defenders: do you also think that the only difference between Strategy and Tactics is about semantics? Open question; answer it or ignore it. I am truly interested in knowing if that is a "common" understanding among you.

I love how if you say one thing is slightly positive about Civ V, you're considered a "defender." How many times do I need to tell you guys? I've said it in every post, I'm DISAPPOINTED WITH THE GAME TOO! But I do not think 1 UPT is the cause of the game's problems like everyone else. I think 1 UPT is a good idea and will be fun once they fix the AI. The game has plenty of other major problems, but 1 UPT is not the problem or the cause of the problem.

Again, I know the difference between Strategy and Tactics, but to say "Tactics has no place in a Strategy game" as you only argument against 1 UPT is just semantics! Just because it's a strategy game does not mean it can't have some tactics in the warfare. Warfare previously was extremely boring because all you did was march stacks around from city to city, it took no thinking at all. Personally, I enjoy having to think in my strategy games, even if it means using tactics instead of strategy.
 
but to say "Tactics has no place in a Strategy game" as you only argument against 1 UPT is just semantics!

It's not their only argument. Look back to where someone quoted a post by pi-r8, post #139. You might have missed it because it came up before the argument (might have started the argument actually). It's hidden in a spoiler because it's pretty long, but it turned me off to 1upt. I now favor limited stacks as a best-of-both-worlds.
 
Doubt I'd like it. Won't buy it because of Steam.
 
Really, steam? Your sig's not a good analogy. If half of all books were pirated, then it would be.
 
I'd have to say "hate" isn't the term. "Dislike" is the proper word. I dislike it because Civ 4 and 5 are no longer simple. To me, simplicity is important. In Civ 4, I felt like I was buried in options that made no sense (the manual didn't help), wouldn't work, or took lots of time to figure out. Civ 3 was simple. It was pick up and play. Civ 4 and 5, were not like that. That is why I dislike Civ 5.
 
But I do not think 1 UPT is the cause of the game's problems like everyone else. I think 1 UPT is a good idea and will be fun once they fix the AI. The game has plenty of other major problems, but 1 UPT is not the problem or the cause of the problem.

FWIW, I don't think anyone believes it's the cause of the problem (or "all" the problems). Though in re-reading my post a few pages back, I did say something about it "screwing up the rest of the game," which probably sounds like I believe 1UPT is the largest / only thing wrong, and that's not the case.

It's not their only argument. Look back to where someone quoted a post by pi-r8, post #139.

That was me - and I quoted this explanation (and thanks go to the RB succession players in this thread for the lucid analysis):

pi-r8 said:
I believe that these problems stem directly from the decision to make civ V a one-unit-per-tile (1UPT) game. 1UPT allows a lot of flexibility in how you arrange your army; however, it only works if your army has empty space to move in. It requires an army smaller than the map. 1UPT led to small army sizes, which led to lower production and faster science, which led to the broken economy system that this game has now. The combat in civ V was based on panzer general, but that doesn't work well in a civ style game. I tried to explain why that is in this post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...0&postcount=48

Clearly this was a decision made early on, since it's such an important part of the game. At the same time, they wanted to keep the "civ" feel to the game, where you settle new cities, build improvements and city buildings, and go in to the city screen to adjust your citizens. Combined, this meant that they had to limit the total number of tiles in the game, and so they tried to force army sizes to be very small. A typical civ 4 army of ~50 units would be incredibly annoying to manage in the Civ V style, so they wanted to encourage armies of only 5~10 units. I hope this succession game showed how clunky warfare becomes in this game when the army sizes get large (I enjoy the early wars with small army sizes). The AI can't handle it, and the player doesn't enjoy it.

In order to do that, they had to limit production. You can see that in the decreased yields- production and food yield have been decreased compared to civ 4, whereas the food required to grow a city was greatly decreased. The early units like warriors don't take very long to build, but the cost of units quickly increases. The high upkeep costs for units, buildings, and roads factor in to this as well (see my sig). The idea was, I think, that every new military unit would take about 10~20 turns to build, just enough to replace your losses while you continually upgraded your original army. As a result, your army size would stay almost constant throughout the game.

Also, it's worth pointing out that there's two ways of effectively decreasing production. Either decrease hammer yields while increasing costs- which they did- or to make science go faster- which they also did. The beaker cost of techs decreased, great scientists became more powerful, and research agreements were added. All of these accelerated the tech pace, giving less time to build the units/buildings for each technology, which effectively decreased production.

So now the developers are stuck with a game that has greatly reduced production values. That's fine, except for one thing- what do they do in the early game? They can't expect us to just sit around clicking "next turn" for 40 turns waiting for our worker to finish, or 100 turns for a library to finish. It's bad enough that it already takes up to 15 turns to finish that first worker. So, they had to make the early stuff a bit cheaper. You can build a warrior in ~6 turns, and you can build a horseman or a library in ~10. Even a coloseum only takes ~20. The idea was that a small city was efficient enough to produce the early game stuff in a reasonable amount of time, and as the city grew, it would produce the later stuff in the same amount of time- keeping army size constant while the cities grew and built infrastructure. There would be no massive increases in the power of a city with its size (like civ 4 had) because if a city became really powerful, it could create huge armies which would break the 1UPT system. If large cities were only modestly more powerful than small cities, the army sizes would stay small. That's pretty much what I discovered when I tried a game limited to just 3 large cities, which I describe here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...8&postcount=37.

What the developers overlooked was that we're not limited to just a few large cities- we can build as many small cities as we want! Granted, we're limited a bit by happiness, but there's a lot of ways to solve that little problem (like keeping the city size small). And since small cities are so efficient at building the early game stuff, and large cities never become vastly more powerful, the many small cities with their trading posts (even without any multipliers) will quickly outproduce the large cities with their mines, despite their forges and workshops.

The game is in an awkward situation where large cities can't be too good because it would imbalance the middle and late game, but small cities have to be good or else the early game would be boring. And of course science is shared between all cities, so the more cities you have, the faster science goes, without any corresponding increase in city production. The result is what we've got now- a large number of small, undeveloped cities can produce a collossal amount of gold and science, which allows us to outtech even a large deity AI, while producing anything we want.

I know a lot of people will suggest balance tweaks to fix this. But I don't think this can be solved adequately without somehow addressing the issue of 1UPT at civ scale. You can't give an incentive to make large, developed cities better because that will just make that late game even faster and more unit-clogged than it is now. You can't make small, undeveloped cities weaker because than the early game will just be excruciatingly slow and boring.
 
Yes, I played games like the Panzer General series, and Fantasy Wars/Elven Legacy. When I heard about Civ5, I thought it's a good idea to use similar combat rules in an empire building game like civ. I also play some games with tactical battles (mainly fantasy ones, like the Age of Wonders series), but I don't think there is need to introduce such feature in Civ. I just imagine that for combat purposes the area where the battles take place represents a much smaller area than for empire-building purposes. I know it's a scale inconsistency, but for me it's fun, and fun > realism. I think tactical battles would needlessly complicate the game, and distract the player's attention from the "grand strategy" aspects of the game too much. Also it would be bad for multiplayer games, where the other players would have to wait when two players are fighting a battle.

Limited stacking and automatic battles (akin to CTP) would be good too, but I prefer 1upt, because I like when large portions of the world map are used for combat puproses, and fronts emerge.

Good answers. :) I hadn't thought about the multiplayer aspect.

For me, I also generally enjoy 1upt, but then I realize that it brought it's own number of problems as a new concept, which IMO could have been avoided by merely improving stacks instead of overhauling the entire system. Breaking immersion by having to imagine your way around little things like scaling and traffic jams are not worth the tactical minigame for me. In IV, I could have imagined the troops maneuvering around on the tile, but I didn't really need to because my only job was to position stacks in a larger strategy...battlefield maneuvering was not my concern. Now, I have to switch gears between the two roles mentally, without the game actually indicating that change. Meh...different strokes.
 
I'm not a pro as many of you here, are. I've been playing Civ casually since Civ 2, and I have always been in awe of players achieving wins on deity in ways that are beyond my capacity.
I've played a few games of Civ 5 on various difficulty levels, and I won them all very easily by just annihilating the AI's. The game is broken, period. I don't know what they should change (I am that mediocre a player), but a player like me shouldn't get wins that easily. It feels awkward, it's too easy, and it doesn't make me feel epic when winning a game on a higher difficulty level. I don't go browsing the forums anymore, looking for new tactics and strategies. I don't follow that brilliant Civ-dude's youtube vids anymore.
For me, the game has lost it's lustre, and I'm (between various other games) back to Civ4, improving my game.
Cyall in Civ6?
 
I'm not a pro as many of you here, are. I've been playing Civ casually since Civ 2, and I have always been in awe of players achieving wins on deity in ways that are beyond my capacity.
I've played a few games of Civ 5 on various difficulty levels, and I won them all very easily by just annihilating the AI's. The game is broken, period. I don't know what they should change (I am that mediocre a player), but a player like me shouldn't get wins that easily. It feels awkward, it's too easy, and it doesn't make me feel epic when winning a game on a higher difficulty level. I don't go browsing the forums anymore, looking for new tactics and strategies. I don't follow that brilliant Civ-dude's youtube vids anymore.
For me, the game has lost it's lustre, and I'm (between various other games) back to Civ4, improving my game.
Cyall in Civ6?

Now THIS is COURAGE.

Instead of going the "I'm also special, I win on Deity in civ5" way, this person here admits his own position without inferiority complex. This is BY FAR more valuable to me than any attempt to put this piece of mediocrity in a higher pedestal than it deserves for the sake of feeling "special"...

Just reminds me of the superb dialogues in The Incredibles:

"Everyone is special, Dash" - says Elastigirl.
"Which is another way to say nobody is" - Dash.
 
The dev team really missed the boat on vastly improving the system in IV. Picture more than just a few turns of "anarchy" when you switch civics. Imagine your own troops turning on you, your cities breaking off and declaring independence, your people picking a new government if unhappiness is rampant. Imagine getting a message that people in your rational society are calling for the abolition of the theocracy that you decreed 500 years ago. Imagine you ignoring them and then the nation breaking into civil war...*drool*

That would probably go over worse than culture flipping did.
 
1upt is a MAJOR reason why this game is SOOOOOOOOOOO boring. You kinda feel good about it for a game or two, but quickly realize that there's not much beef on it, plus the AI cant handle it, plus all the moving ackwarness, plus the ssssssllllllllllooooooowwwwwwwww pace of moving units, it feel like you moving units 3/4 on your playing time and the last quarter is the Enter for next turn fest when you're not at war.

Eliminating SOD was a great idea, making it 1UPT....... threatens to kill the franchise

To come back the original question: People hate that game cause this is only ONE of the problems the game has.

And people stick here still complaining after several month of the launch for 1 reason: The love the franchise enough to care about it.

Being ANY other game... I wouldnt be here after that long!
 
So you couldn't trade with the barbarian cities? So what? They were still independent city-states that grew (and worked together). Every iteration of the game has had things that were in the prior version, carried forward into the new version, but changed in how they worked. Civ4 had city-states that grew substantially and worked with each other (building roads, for example, from city to city). Civ5 modded these to appear right at the beginning, allowed them to trade with players, and allowed limited diplomacy with them. Same thing, just changed somewhat.





So? Again, something's come forward with changes. Instead of taking an entire country on as a puppet, you grab individual cities and puppet them.





Doing a lousy job of something is not innovative. Look at Microsoft. They've done it many, many times.





So it was innovation to add religion, and innovation to remove religion? No. Removing things is *not* innovation.





Umm, no. I've survived and won quite happily in Civ4 with relatively few troops. Usually around 2 troops per city; sometimes fewer. I focus, of course, on science / culture. I've won religious victories by simply putting enough troops in my cities to protect them from betrayal then opened my borders to everybody and swamped them with missionaries. One Apostolic Palace later, voila!





Copying something someone else has done is, again, not innovation. Also again, look at Microsoft.





What's wrong with Communism plus religious freedom? That "opiate" dreck? Marx had a bee up his butt about religion. He was wrong about many other things, why couldn't he be wrong about that, too?

And please show me a civ in the real world, any civ, that's A) survived a long time and B) has NOT changed how it does things. Maybe then I'll believe that "once selected, always selected" is a reasonable thing. (By the way, "a long time" is, say, 10 generations or more.)

The difference betweeen barbarian cities and the city states is quite big. The same goes for vassals and puppet cities. Including or removing something from a game is an innovation for that particular game, so let's stop qubbling about that. It was an innovation to add religion, and it was an innovation to take it out. Surviving with few troops was possible, but most of the time it was not a good idea to try to do so. (OK, so I overstated that item a bit in the post you reply to, but basically I was correct.) As for Civics, in Civ IV you could suddenly switch to another set of them at the cost of a few turns of anarchy, which is bizarre. Now, your choice of civics decides which civics you can choose in the future. That takes a good deal more thought than deciding to go police state for a while and then go back to whatever one ran before, and change some other civics too because it suits you for the moment. Really silly and exploitable.
 
Civ use to be part of the 4X genre... for the type of players that could handle the Master of Orion series, or Galactic Civilization 2 (arguably the most solid recent game in this genre).

That sounds promising. I don't buy many computer games, but this might be the choice for me if Civ V (which does have great potential) isn't materially improved in patches.
 
Well - I've been warned for saying so but this looks as another topic started by somebody from 2k PR department. Sorry - but no PR gimmics will help to sell this weak game.

Insinuating that those who disagree with you are in the pay of Firaxis is a truly offensive way of trying to make their arguments invalid without supplying proper arguments of your own.
 
Öjevind Lång;9968593 said:
That sounds promising. I don't buy many computer games, but this might be the choice for me if Civ V (which does have great potential) isn't materially improved in patches.

I've had two in 15 + years, didnt feel the need for more with Civ (until recently, I shifted to Victoria II. I still have a forlorn hope 2k/Fireaxis will fix this mess though).

However, re your thoughts on GalCiv2 - highly recommended, and Stardock are really, really good at looking after its fanbase. Solid games, and if it goes wrong (like Elemental did) they dive in head first and fix it no PR stupidity, no fluff, just immediate hands up and "oppps sorry guys".

Thats really refreshing for todays grubby games industry - and they do fix it. GalCiv2 is good fun. I'm a Civ "Builder" by nature, which should nicely qualify GalCiv2, because if it appeals to a "Civ Builder" - yet its premise is "kill thy neighbour conquer the galaxy" - says a lot for its playability and immersion factor.

Regards
Zy
 
The major flaws:

(I) The AI can't adequately cope with combat in the 1UPT form so any tactical gains that come from introducing it end up making war less interesting by being too easy. When I play mods that make the AI have a good economy (AI ICS mods for instance) they end up getting way ahead but being unable to fight decently.

(II) Global Happiness even if you call it bureaucracy is an absolute pain in the ass. It's an unfun game mechanic designed to nerf expansion and growth. It does so inadequately as ICS is still way too powerful, but it is a real bugger for mods that try and fix a lot of problems in the game. There are quite a few mods I play that have a lot of potential, but they almost always calibrate happiness wrong. If you make it easier to grow it messes up how happiness works, if you make it take longer to get to technologies that hook up luxuries it messes up how happiness works, if it takes longer to get the technology for colliseums it messes up how happines works. Because happiness is global, and so critical very small changes can bog down the early game and make it unfun. This wouldn't be as big a deal if the core game was well balanced, but it has huge issues- technologies come too quickly compared to units and buildings. Previous approaches where you ended up paying upkeeps for expansion at least let you play an early game even if you stalled your science somewhat early on to expand. Having to stall your growth to expand is just a completely unfun mechanic as it makes expansion so pointless that you just wait around to get happy. The big bonuses the AI gets in happiness at all levels of the game is one of the biggest bonuses ever in the civ series, and the AI needs it, so once again we have a game mechanic the AI can't cope with at all (cheat your way out of problems).

(III) Builders got shafted- Sadly because of the power of maritimes the most important thing you can do for your economy is build military units, discover maritimes and get them allied, while beelining to higher eras to increase the effects of those alliances. This basically reduces the choice of builder vs warmonger to building military units and scouting with them vs building military units and fighting with them. Which is more effective should be pretty obvious... Also, because beelining to an era that increases the ally bonus is the most effective thing you can do for your economy, and because you need colliseums to expand, optimal play pretty much forces you to beeline towards muskets and rifles.. your best economic play is the military technology path, which makes large parts of the tech tree exist solely for sandbox play. The only real alternative is to ignore iron working pretty much entirely and go for chivalry and banking through horseback riding and parts of the top of the tree, and this path is going to get worse after horses get nerfed. The main advantage to this strategy was ancient era horse rush, so again its a military path through the tech tree.

(IV) Upside down mechanics. The library is better than the university which is better than the public school which is better than the research lab (and similarly for other building chains). You end up paying more hammers and more gold per turn for each subsequent building, for effects which are equal or lesser in power. The net result of this is that vertical expansion (lots of cities) dominates horizontal expansion, so the game becomes about balancing happiness to be able to expand properly (and always doing so when you have the happiness to afford it, unless your city won't give you value before you win the game). If you were encouraged to have large populations by say having progressively better improvements (say library + 25% 1 science slot, university +50% 2 science slots, public school +75% 3 science slots, research lab +100% 4 science slots) with the latter part of the tech tree rebalanced to handle it, vertical growth would be interesting and managing big cities would be about more than just sandboxing.

The major benefits:

(1) Beautiful Scenery -> The graphics are actually pretty amazing, most lifelike yet asides from huge problems with the river deltas, and little to no animation.

(2) City States -> The concept has a lot of potential, It's really cool to be able to put 'Civilizations' on maps who aren't going to expand and who have limited diplomacy (mainly interesting through allying). Right now its badly broken though, maritimes are overpowered, and even once they get nerfed there are a lot of unfun issues with city states because of diplomacy abuse (get an ally sell the resources they give you, lather rinse repeat).

(3) 1UPT potential -> The concept of having more units in a fight has always been badly represented in civ games (fighting one at a time etc). We finally get a method for neighbor bonuses (flanking, discipline) and a way for catapults and archers to get involved without suiciding. It's been missing from civ for a long time and something needed to be done about it. 1UPT has its flaws, but it does have a lot of potential. I'd prefer an army system that used a sim mode (no user controlled tactical battles) of a total war type engine, but I'm not sure how viable that is, the mechanics are unintuitive for starters.

(4) Hexes -> For the most part Hexes are much better at having more realistic movement. Gone are the days of zigzag oriented diagonal stuff.

(5) No more random city death -> No longer is it the case that an early undefended city can just randomly die. This was a huge problem in previous Civs where the consensus best play was to send your first military unit out scouting, and sometimes another player just found your Civ and ended your game before a 2nd unit was up. In Civ 1 there was even stuff with barbs that was an issue.
 
I heard the very popular boardgame 'The Settlers of Catan' offers a very deep gameplay, especially in lategame. Of course no AI problem here.
 
... the fact remains that you can't change democracy into something that works with fascism because democracy is a predefined term.

Democracy and fascism work quite well together. Democracy is a form of government, fascism is a worldview. You can have fascist democracies, fascist totalitarian states, and fascist monarchies. Fascism is the worldview of "everybody's out to get us", "it's X's fault that we've got troubles", "we're Y, so we're better than everybody else!", and "it's our destiny to rule".



As for countries that havent changed. first of that on its own makes no sense because you can indeed change your government in CiV. you can race for monarchy and later evolve it into communism, you can switch of branches too. But what remains a factor is that you can't radically alter things immediately like in Civ4. This is both historically accurate and logical. Take Russia s an example. the country is 1000 years old yet things that came with Ivan The Terrible are still factors of todays Russia: Strong attachment to nationality, Strong attachments to religion, despite 100 years of war against it. Oppressive state yet today a democracy.

There is nothing (that I can think of, anyway) in Civ4 that forces you to change civics. You can run an entire game without ever selecting any of them. Or, you can change them as often as you're able.

Note that your "immediately in Civ4" could actually (depending on your ruler) be as long as 6 turns of Anarchy.

Civ4 gave you the *option* of changing civs; it didn't force you to, nor did it force you to *not*. Civ5 took away the option of *changing your mind*. Once chosen, forever chosen.

(At least, according to what the docs say. That's why I never use Piety. It precludes selecting Rationalism.)
 
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