[R&F] Why does the late game lack production?

[acluewithout]

There is a great post here about how Civ VI mid / late game lacks production relative to unit, building and district costs.

I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts on “why” there is a lack of production. Or, put another way, which mechanics aren’t pulling their weight or are causing problems.

A few thoughts:

- I don’t think the problem is improvements. Mines etc. generally give good production, and they increase well as you research techs. Lumber mills are perceived as a little underpowered, but I don’t think they are - they are good on hills / with rivers, and also let you keep appeal which has some use mid or late game.

- IZ and its buildings seem very underpowered. IZ just doesn’t have strong enough adjacency and the buildings giving flat production is problematic. I think IZs are the big problem really, particularly given there is no card to multiply building yields (and I think there would be balance problems if there were). FXS tried to buff IZ and IZ buildings with Magnus, but it doesn’t seem to have worked.

- Trade routes, policy cards ( eg e-commerce) and wonders don’t seem to really help, because the game is over way before you’d get much benefit from these.

- I’m not really clear whether Tier 3 Governments do enough to boost production. Looking at Communism and Democracy, I think the intention was that Tier 3 buildings would create a sudden burst of production. That’s a cool idea, but I’m not sure it works.

- I think maybe some things don’t synergise well. e.g. Democracy gives you +1 production per district, which would synergise well with Neighbourhoods... except, no one builds Neighbourhoods. The religious belief “Work Ethic” is also another one that doesn’t work well, because it’s such a small bonus and you don’t tend to have large populations anyway. Some of these potential synergies also come very late in the game.

 

[Archon_Wing]

It would seem the production costs are balanced around policy cards. But those only help with certain things.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

The biggest issue the game has is the internal inflation factor the game uses (GAME_COST_ESCALATION) which is set to 1000 by default - that is by the end of the game things will cost 10 times their base value - I find that value much too high, still playing about with what the right one is but I'm getting good results from 300.

 

[acluewithout]

@Noble Zarkon Good point. I was trying to avoid the cost inflation can of worms, but maybe that's not sensible when talking about late game production.

I don't actually mind the increased cost of districts, settlers and builders. But then I usually get districts through chopping or build settlers and builders with my big cities, or just buy them with gold. Building units is a real pain though.

One thing I wonder is whether the late game production drought is meant to force players to use faith and gold in the late game. Feels wasteful buying too many units with gold though - I'd rather spend gold on buildings.

Interested to hear more about your experiences adjusting cost inflation. That only impacts districts, correct?

 

[Chefofrats]

From a historical immersion perspective, the industrial revolution should have a much more visible impact on production. Historically, industrialization arguably was the biggest change in the development of civilization since the advent of agriculture. I think it should provide a massive bonus to IZ production output. The factory should also be buffed, because as is it provides only a minor improvement over the workshop, which makes no sense from a historical point of view.

 

[kaspergm]

It would seem the production costs are balanced around policy cards. But those only help with certain things.

Game is balanced around Industrial Zone stacking. Then they removed IZ stacking and didn't change anything for a long while.

Sure, Magnus helps in the city where he is stationed, and yes policy cards help in their specific area, but baseline is everything from Renaissance or Industrial era onwards needs to be rebalanced in terms of costs, and they never bothered doing it.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

By the late game, I'm buying everything I need with gold (or faith) and cities are just running projects.

Maybe that's the way the developers wanted the game to go, maybe it's just my adaptation to the existing mechanics. But the need for late game production disappeared once Reyna allowed for the buying of districts with gold (and National Society allowed for gold-bought Builders to complete Space Race projects, if going for a science victory).

 

[Aurelesk]

Game is balanced around Industrial Zone stacking. Then they removed IZ stacking and didn't change anything for a long while.

I think a small change for the Workshop - Factory - Powerplant is needed:

• Workshop: 3 Production (+1)
• Factory: 4 Production for the city (new), 2 Production for all city in range (-1) (not stackable, the city with the Factory don't have it, but can have it if in range of a Factory from other city)
• Powerplant: 5 Production for the city (new), 3 Production for all city in range (-1) (not stackable, the city with the Factory don't have it, but can have it if in range of a Powerplant from other city)

At best, all city can go up to 16 Production (3 + 4 + 2 + 5 + 2) if all cities have all the Industrial Zone, all the buildings and all in range of an other Industrial Zone. The downside: you need a Industrial Zone in all the cities to max out the Production.
Currently, the Production go up to 7 but you don't need an Industrial Zone in all cities. So you may max out the 7 Production for 6 cities with 1 Industrial Zone! If you do the same thing but with the idea I propose, you only have 5 Production.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I think a small change for the Workshop - Factory - Powerplant is needed:

• Workshop: 3 Production (+1)
• Factory: 4 Production for the city (new), 2 Production for all city in range (-1) (not stackable, the city with the Factory don't have it, but can have it if in range of a Factory from other city)
• Powerplant: 5 Production for the city (new), 3 Production for all city in range (-1) (not stackable, the city with the Factory don't have it, but can have it if in range of a Powerplant from other city)

At best, all city can go up to 16 Production (3 + 4 + 2 + 5 + 2) if all cities have all the Industrial Zone, all the buildings and all in range of an other Industrial Zone. The downside: you need a Industrial Zone in all the cities to max out the Production.
Currently, the Production go up to 7 but you don't need an Industrial Zone in all cities. So you may max out the 7 Production for 6 cities with 1 Industrial Zone! If you do the same thing but with the idea I propose, you only have 5 Production.

I like your idea, and I like the idea of a useful IZ district. Maybe just let IZ bonuses stack but at +1 production for each factory beyond the 1st, and +2 production for each power plant beyond the 1st.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I like your idea, and I like the idea of a useful IZ district. Maybe just let IZ bonuses stack but at +1 production for each factory beyond the 1st, and +2 production for each power plant beyond the 1st.

That sounds a good, simple way of doing it. Think what a valued city-state Toronto would become.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

That sounds a good, simple way of doing it. Think what a valued city-state Toronto would become.

Toronto could move to mid tier or even higher. Could make the late game more interesting as well, people might even start to build research labs and late game wonders.

 

[Sykes179]

I don't see a problem. I usually have a couple of cities with production close to if not over 100 per turn by the late game. I never build districts unless I get a good adjacency bonus and tend to focus trade routes on production if that's what I'm focusing on.

Of course you'll get less production if you've chopped anything and everything in the early game but that's the whole point. Chopping is not without consequence.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Game is balanced around Industrial Zone stacking. Then they removed IZ stacking and didn't change anything for a long while.

Sure, Magnus helps in the city where he is stationed, and yes policy cards help in their specific area, but baseline is everything from Renaissance or Industrial era onwards needs to be rebalanced in terms of costs, and they never bothered doing it.

Yea basically. Even with high production cities, I'm better off running projects and buying whatever's needed, especially since trade routes give more gold than before.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I don't see a problem. I usually have a couple of cities with production close to if not over 100 per turn by the late game. I never build districts unless I get a good adjacency bonus and tend to focus trade routes on production if that's what I'm focusing on.

Of course you'll get less production if you've chopped anything and everything in the early game but that's the whole point. Chopping is not without consequence.

That's really only a consequence, though, if you're role-playing or otherwise playing a style where you want to grow cities with 100+ production per turn. When people talk about chopping being overpowered versus leaving resources intact, they're talking from the perspective of winning the game as quickly as possible.

I agree with you, however, that I don't see a problem. If you want to play in a way that allows you to produce expensive late game units, buildings, etc., there are ways to do it.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Yea basically. Even with high production cities, I'm better off running projects and buying whatever's needed, especially since trade routes give more gold than before.

Does anyone dislike projects, or is it just me? I think they detract from longer term strategic planning, knowing that I don't really need any T3 buildings whatsoever, sort of ruins things for me. Truth of it is, I actually ignore them by and large, and just build the buildings anyway. Kind of like overflow. I mean I use it, but not particularly often. I could do without overflow and projects in their entirety.

It's either that or I don't much care for scrolling all the way down to the bottom of the build options for projects, and overflow takes too much time away from my war planning.

 

[Iberian]

Another problem is the production is killer for newly founded cities. Late game I have to use the governor to buy districts just so they finish in less than 50 turns while my core cities are running 250-300 production each. Game just isn't well balanced overall. So many things have terrible ROI.

Such is the fate though of people who play Civ as an optimization puzzle. Most people are playing to have fun that doesn't require an Excel like love of math. Not sure what Firaxis should do. Spend time appealing to the 1% of those who play the game at its limits or just make a game that is fun for everyone else. I know where the money is though.

 

[UWHabs]

Another problem is the production is killer for newly founded cities. Late game I have to use the governor to buy districts just so they finish in less than 50 turns while my core cities are running 250-300 production each. Game just isn't well balanced overall. So many things have terrible ROI.

Such is the fate though of people who play Civ as an optimization puzzle. Most people are playing to have fun that doesn't require an Excel like love of math. Not sure what Firaxis should do. Spend time appealing to the 1% of those who play the game at its limits or just make a game that is fun for everyone else. I know where the money is though.

Yes, this is especially challenging. Given that district are roughly 10X more expensive at the end of the game than at the start, a "new" city late game doesn't have 10X the production of a "new" city early in the game. Sure, it will often have a little bit more, and things are balanced around chopping.

But overall, top cities production will often be pretty good at the end, but every city outside the 2-3 best cities in my empire you can basically forget about. They really do need to have a much bigger impact for factories and the industrial revolution. Yes, production goes up ~25% with the bonus to mines, but with a factory only adding only 3 production, that's practically a rounding error on the total.

 

[darkace77450]

Does anyone dislike projects, or is it just me? I think they detract from longer term strategic planning, knowing that I don't really need any T3 buildings whatsoever, sort of ruins things for me. Truth of it is, I actually ignore them by and large, and just build the buildings anyway.

I don't think the two have much to do with one another. Tier 3 buildings are bad regardless of whether or not district projects are a thing, in my opinion.

 

[acluewithout]

Yea basically. Even with high production cities, I'm better off running projects and buying whatever's needed, especially since trade routes give more gold than before.

That's really only a consequence, though, if you're role-playing or otherwise playing a style where you want to grow cities with 100+ production per turn. When people talk about chopping being overpowered versus leaving resources intact, they're talking from the perspective of winning the game as quickly as possible.

I agree with you, however, that I don't see a problem. If you want to play in a way that allows you to produce expensive late game units, buildings, etc., there are ways to do it.

I don't think the goal late game should be for every city to be bursting with production. It should just be a few cities out of your empire that can really produce stuff. But I don't think where the game is now is quite right, although I'm having trouble nailing down in my mind what is the problem.

One issue is that (I think) the game sends slightly mixed messages about production v gold in the late game. The games gives you all these messages that it's all about gold late game. On the one hand, international trade routes give gold rather than production (and food), lots of cards boost gold, and of course many projects produce gold; and on top that, the game sort of boosts gold purchasing over producing through e.g. professional armies card is an obvious example, but also the switch from Ilkum to Serfdom which favours gold buying builders (see here), and then builders now letting you complete projects via Royal Society building. All suggests Gold is God. But then two out of three Tier 3 Governments directly boost production, and you also get the e-commerce policy card late game, and of course you're still getting production discount cards.

Part of this is certainly just allowing some flexibility between gold and production (and faith, of course). But I also think part of it, is that the game is designed for you to have a small number of cities with high production, and then smaller satellite cities that boost the production of your core power cities, e.g. through generating gold or providing trade routes etc. That's probably the intention behind things like the colonial city policy cards.

There's maybe two related problems. First, I still think there's a lack of late game production. If I was going to point to something, it'd be IZs and IZ buildings. These need a boost (see here).

Second, I think cities founded in the mid / late game need more value. The dedication which gives new settled cities 4 starting pop is good, as is Ancestral Hall. What I think would also help is cities having some value beyond districts. e.g. Maybe some city centre buildings which let new cities run projects without districts that boost growth and provide more gold.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, I think the best way to look at it and see when you get Industrialization. Usually by the time I get it, it's more past the halfway point and there's probably like 100 turns left at most. and the last 30-40 aren't going to be producing anything that important that isn't on autpilot. So adding 3 production.... yea.

But it's a common complaint that teching outpaces everything else, though they have slowed it down a bit by nerfing science.

I mean, looking back to Civ 4, factories came pretty late there too, but you had other things to build on top of it like forges and such plus the end result was big, like 50%, so you could really see things being churned up super fast.

But then again, in Civ 4, pretty much most buildings in most cities were useless too and you were best off building wealth/science which is the same thing as projects.

Oh yea, not sure how I forgot, but nerf chopping hard. It should be the same amount early game, but it should not scale anywhere near as well as it does later on.