Why doesn't Order and Freedom/Liberty cancel out each other?

[KevinMiles90000]

Communism is an economic system. Democracy is a political system. They are unrelated.

I came here to post this exact thing.

Democracy deals with how lawmakers are elected, communism deals with how an economy functions. You could very well have a communistic economy with officials elected/decisions made by the general population.



Rationalism and piety... well, that's a whole other bag of worms.

 

[Glassmage]

What about Order incompatible with Freedom and Autocracy only incompatible with Liberty for balance and force you to make choices???

 

[aatami]

What about Order incompatible with Freedom and Autocracy only incompatible with Liberty for balance and force you to make choices???

No... Why? To keep some realism in the game.

 

[Glassmage]

even the description in Order say to "squash some freedom"....

 

[aatami]

even the description in Order say to "squash some freedom"....

That's a civilopedia issue.

 

[awesome]

they had elections in the ussr, so it at least looked like a democracy, even if it wasn't. that kind of counts.

 

[Bibor]

Communism is a form of economy where ownership is shared. Commune = communism.

A commune is an intentional community of people living together, sharing common interests, property, possessions, resources, work, and income.

All such concepts (democracy, capitalism, communism) are purely utopian and cannot exist for long in a "real world" except in very small groups.

 

[TPQ]

All such concepts (democracy, capitalism, communism) are purely utopian and cannot exist for long in a "real world" except in very small groups.

You got that right. All of them end up diluted and/or corrupted in some way.

 

[forty2j]

The fact that generally all "Communist" countries have also been dictatorial does not mean it necessarily needs to be so. An economic policy does not force a civil one, or a religious one for that matter.

 

[aatami]

Well, true communism never really happened IRL. When people think of communism they picture Stalin & Mao, who were really more autocrats than communists.

I'd like to point this post out even more.

 

[jagdtigerciv]

I think because the Order tree is not the Communist tree. Only one policy (the final one) is Communist -- and perhaps planned economy can be mixed with.

However, things like Nationalism, Socialism, United Front, are all aspects of our own modern democracies. Perhaps the game should cause policies to disable trees (or other policies).

For example, Communism could disable the bonus' of Meritocracy? Or Perhaps the Order tree should disable the Liberty tree and not Freedom?

Anyway, in my opinion there needs to be a "free market" tree -- that or commerce needs a lot of work.

 

[JJOne]

I think the thing that ticks me off more than the Order and Liberty/Freedom problem (if there is one) is the fact that Social Policies actually restrict your Empire more than Civics ever did. Say that you want certain parts of a tree, yet they are at the end, and you don't like the idea of that being your empire in the future. Like in the Order tree, Communism is at the end. Once Communist, always Communist that means.

I would take this a little bit further and ask what on Earth has communism to do with better production? I know, China is communist and produces everything in the world, but Cuba is also communist. What do they produce? Cigars?

 

[President Evil]

I think because the Order tree is not the Communist tree.

Well, the leader title it gives you is Chairman, which was the leader of the Chinese Communist Party. Also, I think each tree is basically a period of your Empire's history. Like say in Piety, you start with an Organized Religion, and than you become a Theocracy, but eventually a Reformation occurs giving the people Free Religion. Although, that path could be wiped away and than paved with another, Rationalism. So, I still think there should be a way to wipe away the Path of Order with another. Which, I think should be Liberty, making them literally opposites. In a Thesaurus, an antonym for the word Order is Liberty. While Autocracies shouldn't mix with Freedom.

 

[cccv]

Honestly, I think people are thinking too hard about this. I don't think of the SPs as making your empire into what the name implies. I mean, if you unlock democracy, do you have to pass an approval rating check or lose the game every X turns? And is the only consequence of democracy a boost in great people being born? Since I don't feel like I'm actually running a democracy (being ruler for 6000 years no matter my approval rating, clearly I am not), it doesn't bother me to run that SP at the same time as something that might seem to contradict it. If anything maybe the names could be changed.

 

[Glassmage]

Civpedia said for Order -
"The policy of order values stability above all else. Order is what people most crave - that tomorrow will be the same as today - and that society won't come crashing down on their heads, leaving them prey to the barbarians waiting in the wilderness. Chaos is the most terrible affliction that mankind can suffer, and all so-called "freedoms" are subservient to the necessity to protect against it."

Maybe the devs intended Order to be opposite of Freedom or Liberty..... Make Order be opposite of one of these two things and make Autocracy only contradicts 1 other tree would be a nice buff to Autocracy tree.

 

[aatami]

Civpedia said for Order -
"The policy of order values stability above all else. Order is what people most crave - that tomorrow will be the same as today - and that society won't come crashing down on their heads, leaving them prey to the barbarians waiting in the wilderness. Chaos is the most terrible affliction that mankind can suffer, and all so-called "freedoms" are subservient to the necessity to protect against it."

Maybe the devs intended Order to be opposite of Freedom or Liberty..... Make Order be opposite of one of these two things and make Autocracy only contradicts 1 other tree would be a nice buff to Autocracy tree.

It would not be realistic at all...

 

[Karl_Rove]

I think that it would not be a good idea gameplay-wise to make them go the way of piety/rationalism, and for me at least, that's all that really matters.

 

[KevinMiles90000]

Really, piety and rationalism don't go together. Just ask the number 0 and the caliphate.

 

[Bibor]

I would take this a little bit further and ask what on Earth has communism to do with better production? I know, China is communist and produces everything in the world, but Cuba is also communist. What do they produce? Cigars?

A company entirely owned by its workers (in form of say stocks) in United States is communism as well. Forms may vary but the idea is the same. As people pointed out, Mao, Stalin, Castro may be communists and dictators at the same time. These two are neither mutually exclusive nor inclusive. It's perfectly possible to have a communist democracy. As a matter of fact, democracy (in some form) is the preferred government type for communism.

Production is indeed better in a communist company. Again, the problem is that it doesn't work for large masses of people. Or at least not yet.

 

[President Evil]

Yeah, but that's not the Communism we have in the game. The one we have mentions about taking away some freedom. Personally I believe it's supposed to be that big bad Stalicastro Zedong. The anti-freedom one. All the more reason for the policies to conflict.

The reason for the production, in my view, is that the strict state's control is causing what it was meant to: Order. The people know their place, and work for their own good, allowing a rise in Production. Although, like I said, some Freedom had to be taken away for that to happen.