Why have the Boers never made it into a Civ game?

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Uncle Paul

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Also, who knows what the future brings with regards to the Boer Republics. Maybe we will get it back some day.
 
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Because a modern (at the time) republic is worthy, some tribal villages aren't.
Like Haiti? :mischief:
Also, who knows what the future brings with regards to the Boer Republics. Maybe we will get it back some day.
And lose having a dignified head of state in exchange for a partisan clown? :p
 

Henri Christophe

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In my opinion, Gandhi can (and should) be retired.
I agree on that, India should be debloobed in several minor civs.
I know it isn't the most important, but I rly want to see Ahmadnegar Sultanate lead by Malik Ambar as civ and it is just possible if there is no more india in future civs.

Like Haiti? :mischief:
Haiti at least was an Empire for a time, meanwhile the Boers republic was just a boring republic.
 

Taizong4Civ7

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Haiti is also incredibly notable for the Haitian Revolution, and establishing one of the first republican states in the Americas that banned slavery. I'm sure the triumph of freedom over slavery resonates with a lot of people, and THAT is an unequivocally good thing to everyone.
 

Uncle Paul

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Like Haiti? :mischief:

And lose having a dignified head of state in exchange for a partisan clown? :p
In fact, you will see the current Head of State of South Africa is a partisan clown.
I agree on that, India should be debloobed in several minor civs.
I know it isn't the most important, but I rly want to see Ahmadnegar Sultanate lead by Malik Ambar as civ and it is just possible if there is no more india in future civs.


Haiti at least was an Empire for a time, meanwhile the Boers republic was just a boring republic.
Civ is geared at Westerners, they only know Gandhi and modern India. I could go for a Mogul civ lead by Akbar, but that's it. We don't need more than Akbar's Moguls (Islamic India) and Ghandi's India (Hindu India.
Of course, Slavery was the biggest sin of humanity
No. British concentration camps in the Boer war, the Irish potato famine, the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, and the postwar expulsions from Eastern Europe were all worse.
 

Patine

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Also, who knows what the future brings with regards to the Boer Republics. Maybe we will get it back some day.
If Constand Viljoen, Eugene Terre'Blanche, and even some of the less directly militant members of such a movement are any indication, they remind me of the Confederate Lost Cause crowd.
... we can all agree that slavery is bad right?

Of course, Slavery was the biggest sin of humanity
Well, one of them, at least. Up there with genocide, mass economic exploitation, deliberate deception of the masses, histiorical revisionism for ulterior motives, the existence of nuclear weapons, etc. There are several at the top - but not many.
I know it isn't the most important, but I rly want to see Ahmadnegar Sultanate lead by Malik Ambar as civ and it is just possible if there is no more india in future civs.
I should have known saying Gandhi should be retired would bring up HIM being brought up again... :sad:
Haiti at least was an Empire for a time
It was a self-proclaimed, short-lived monarchy whose monarch styled himself as an, "Emperor," when it was nowhere near an Empire in any common or classical sense of the word.
 

Uncle Paul

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If Constand Viljoen, Eugene Terre'Blanche, and even some of the less directly militant members of such a movement are any indication, they remind me of the Confederate Lost Cause crowd.
None of them were perfect, but they were all a million times better than Julius Malema.
It was a self-proclaimed, short-lived monarchy whose monarch styled himself as an, "Emperor," when it was nowhere near an Empire in any common or classical sense of the word.
Yes, even the "Empire of Haiti" paled in comparison to the Boer Republics.
 

Henri Christophe

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No. British concentration camps in the Boer war, the Irish potato famine, the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, and the postwar expulsions from Eastern Europe were all worse.
I still think the Slavery was the worst human sin even in comparasion with these events you said.
But at least we can agree Slavery was a bad thing.
It was a self-proclaimed, short-lived monarchy whose monarch styled himself as an, "Emperor," when it was nowhere near an Empire in any common or classical sense of the word.
Haiti also managed to control the Republic Dominician side of the island for while, conquer other peoples is what Empires do, so it was a kind of Empire yes.
And had 3 emperors in Haiti, Jean Jaque Dessalines, Henri Christophe and Faustino Solouque. This last one was the last emperor and the one Republic Dominician get it's independence from.

Yes, even the "Empire of Haiti" paled in comparison to the Boer Republics.
That I must to disagree. The only achivement of the Boers was being white in Africa. Is very unique, I admit, but not unique enouth to be a civ.
Most because the Apartheid stuffs, it's count bad to the Boers.
 

Patine

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None of them were perfect, but they were all a million times better than Julius Malema.
"A million times better," eh? That's quite the boast. I see them as both being quite awful, with bad ideas that would be awful for their nation, or any nation - just in very different days. Channeling Malan or channeling Mugabe isn't a matter of any higher podium, there...
Yes, even the "Empire of Haiti" paled in comparison to the Boer Republics.
No, about, equal in historical interest and significance, but Haiti comes out on top for warranting a Civ slot.
 
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In fact, you will see the current Head of State of South Africa is a partisan clown.
But since South Africa is part of the Commonwealth of Nations I thought the head of state would be Charles III, at least according to you?
Civ is geared at Westerners, they only know Gandhi and modern India. I could go for a Mogul civ lead by Akbar, but that's it. We don't need more than Akbar's Moguls (Islamic India) and Ghandi's India (Hindu India.
That's what I hope they do for Civ VII. Though I can also get behind Ashoka for India.
I still think the Slavery was the worst human sin even in comparasion with these events you said.
I mean you can definitely argue that the Holocaust was in fact also a form of slavery plus genocide, not to mention the other forms of forced labor camps such as gulags in the Soviet Union etc. that resulted in massive amounts of fatalities.
 

Uncle Paul

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I still think the Slavery was the worst human sin even in comparasion with these events you said.
But at least we can agree Slavery was a bad thing.
No, slavery wasn't worse. An African slave got to live, a Boer or Jew killed in a concentration camp did not. An Armenian killed by the Turk did not. An Irishman who starved because the potato crop failed did not.
Haiti also managed to control the Republic Dominician side of the island for while, conquer other peoples is what Empires do, so it was a kind of Empire yes.
And had 3 emperors in Haiti, Jean Jaque Dessalines, Henri Christophe and Faustino Solouque. This last one was the last emperor and the one Republic Dominician get it's independence from.
So they conquered the other half of their tiny island? Still, less land than the Boer Republics controlled.
That I must to disagree. The only achivement of the Boers was being white in Africa. Is very unique, I admit, but not unique enouth to be a civ.
Most because the Apartheid stuffs, it's count bad to the Boers.
The Great Trek, Blood River, Boer Republics, beating the Brits in 1881, Jan Smuts, Dr Barnard, etc...
"A million times better," eh? That's quite the boast. I see them as both being quite awful, with bad ideas that would be awful for their nation, or any nation - just in very different days. Channeling Malan or channeling Mugabe isn't a matter of any higher podium, there...
Malan was a million times better than Mugabe. Pretorius, Kruger, and Smuts were better than Malan.
No, about, equal in historical interest and significance, but Haiti comes out on top for warranting a Civ slot.
If they're about equal, then they should be equal in warranting a Civ slot. Meanwhile, Civ, like any game based around history, attracts a lot of right-wingers, and South Africa and Rhodesia have an iconic status among right-wingers. Haiti doesn't have an iconic status among any group of gamers. (I'd love to see a Rhodesian civ led by Ian Smith, but I know that will never happen)
But since South Africa is part of the Commonwealth of Nations I thought the head of state would be Charles III, at least according to you?
Not all Commonwealth members have the UK monarch as head of state anymore.
That's what I hope they do for Civ VII. Though I can also get behind Ashoka for India.
Gandhi - civ legend, well-known in the West
Ashoka - obscure
I mean you can definitely argue that the Holocaust was in fact also a form of slavery plus genocide, not to mention the other forms of forced labor camps such as gulags in the Soviet Union etc. that resulted in massive amounts of fatalities.
I think Henri Christophe has a very black-centric view of the world, similar to how I have a very Boer-centric (and to a lesser extent White-centric) view of the world. So in some ways, we are counterparts to each other. Horseshoe theory.
 

Patine

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No, slavery wasn't worse. An African slave got to live, a Boer or Jew killed in a concentration camp did not. An Armenian killed by the Turk did not. An Irishman who starved because the potato crop failed did not.
There are circumstances people can be put in where death can seem like a mercy.
Malan was a million times better than Mugabe. Pretorius, Kruger, and Smuts were better than Malan.
I remain unconvinced of this statement, especially with the, "million times better," hyperbole.
Gandhi - civ legend, well-known in the West
Ashoka - obscure
This is the second time today, and you've it quite a bit in the recent past, by dismissing the fact that Civ players, on average, are already much more educated on history and other social sciences than the, "typical everyperson," in the West, but, that somehow, even with that insulting and presumptuous fallacy, assume everyone knows enough about Kruger and Pretorious to consider them much more worthy additions than many seriously touted, considered, and mulled, who had much more historical significance, and you have unilaterally and arbitrarily declared too obscure to be included.
 

Uncle Paul

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There are circumstances people can be put in where death can seem like a mercy.
Lots of people had to do hard, physical labor at that time, for minimal compensation.
I remain unconvinced of this statement, especially with the, "million times better," hyperbole.
You really would take Mugabe (self-identified as the "African Hitler) over Dr. Malan?
This is the second time today, and you've it quite a bit in the recent past, by dismissing the fact that Civ players, on average, are already much more educated on history and other social sciences than the, "typical everyperson," in the West, but, that somehow, even with that insulting and presumptuous fallacy, assume everyone knows enough about Kruger and Pretorious to consider them much more worthy additions than many seriously touted, considered, and mulled, who had much more historical significance, and you have unilaterally and arbitrarily declared too obscure to be included.
Pretoria is named after Pretorius, and everyone knows the Krugerrand. Ashoka is obscure, I only know him because he was in Civ 4, but Gandhi is so much better known than Ashoka.
 

FishFishFish

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Uncle Paul

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