Why have the Boers never made it into a Civ game?

[Evie]

Yes, but these are all lazy stereotypes and/or just weird. I don't know anyone who farms tundra in Canada, or anywhere else, with any motive success, and the Khanty and Swedes, at very specific junctures (one battle, both against the Russians, each, as I recall), are the only known ones in history who actually tried riding moose as cavalry.

Oh, yes, if you want to complain about those being horribly cliche - then yes.

Canada should be the forest civ (fur trade, lumber trade, maple sugar trade), not the tundra civ, and its tundra bonuses should come from bonuses on forest tundra, not tundra farms.

Not much to do with Firaxis making Canada French, though, which they did not - if anything Tundra farming is a horribly misguided attempt at representing the settlement of the Prairies, since that's what the UA name (the last, best west) historically refers to.

 

[Snowygerry]

, whereas Afrikaans got rid of the unnecessary stuff.

Look at the quote in my signature: "Ons sal lewe, ons sal sterwe; ons vir jou, Suid-Afrika!". Literally, one-to-one, "us shall live, us shall die, us for you, South Africa!". Us and we are the same word (ons) in Afrikaans, because there's no valid reason to have two words for it. Afrikaans also does away with the pointless grammatical gender system...except for a small number of pronouns.

Sounds like a bastardized Flemish dialect to me.

Sure there is a valid reason.

"Ons" is used for a "voorwerpsvorm" and "we" (wij) for an "onderwerpsvorm" - do these words have meaning to you ?

wij / ons

Wij (of we) is de onderwerpsvorm van de eerste persoon meervoud. Ons is de voorwerpsvorm. Twijfel tussen wij en ons is mogelijk na dan, als en zoals. In de meeste van die gevallen is het aan te bevelen om de vorm wij te gebruiken, omdat de zin een onderwerpsvorm vereist. In sommige gevallen is...

www.vlaanderen.be

Interesting Boer War scenario here btw.

The Boer War (TBW)

Just got this and all I can say, is great work, I really like it, although, why is there a tech called Future Tech? Why don't you put it in Era NONE?

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

or anywhere else, with any motive success, and the Khanty and Swedes, at very specific junctures (one battle, both against the Russians, each, as I recall), are the only known ones in history who actually tried riding moose as cavalry.

Canadian UU doesn't ride on moose, though? The mounties are on horses.

America isn't really a pioneer civ in most iterations of CIV...have America be a hegemonic superpower, and leave the ragamuffin pioneers to the Boers, who did a better job of it than the United States.

No but they could definitely be.
American pioneer expansion westward and becoming a hegemonic superpower go together easily if you look at the history.

 

[emzie]

I still stand that is a great distortion that really bugs about Firaxis' take on Canada for some inexplicable reason. Canada very much has a British post-colonial heritage, just as much as Australia and the U.S., less then 20% of Canadians speak French as their mother tongue, 8 out of 10 provinces conduct their Provincial-level Government business and mainstream public schools (as opposed to alternative, but smaller-scale public options, or private schooling), and signage and labelling, are in English. The political apparatus is extremely similar in structure and base institutions and core theory to Australia and the UK, and we use Common Law, not the Civil Code, except for a significant number exception in Civic Law in the Province of Quebec, alone, and our political institutions do not resemble those of France or a former French colony, really, remotely. Our Queen died less than a week ago, too. And, when he was PM, Wilfred Laurier conducted virtually all officially Government business, domestically and abroad, in English, which he had great fluency in. And, we must not forget, that the, by far, biggest Francophone Province, Quebec, is also home to the largest and most politically successful, by an immense margin, SECCESSIONIST political movement who want to SEPARATE from Canada, and feelings of inequity of language and cultural issues in modern Canada. Firaxis' portrayal, and comments as above that seem to casually remark Firaxis' bizarre design choice as actually being fact, is a pet peeve of mine. I apologize for the rant, but, as someone who lives in Western Canada, it always struck me as a bad design choice with no care for what the majority of Canadians would think (when they bend over backwards to get other cultures to agree to their portrayals, even choosing dubious individuals or groups to, "speak for," those cultures, too), and my anger is not at you, but at Firaxis, and the statement of their legacy as not only being in game design, but lumped into conversation as though termed as a fact, becoming so prominent. And, I know Firaxis doesn't care about what I, or over 80% of Canadians, say about their portrayal of Cananda, despite having a sizable consumer base here...

Canada without Quebec is a couple of US states.

 

[Patine]

Canada without Quebec is a couple of US states.

Well, no, not really. We have differences in priorities, values, and even culture from Americans - and a statistical majority aversion to annexation by our Southern neighbour - that is not strictly tied to the presence of Quebec.

 

[Uncle Paul]

We already discuss that in the other thread. But Haiti is way better to be a civ then the Boers.
At least the Haiti still a country today, where is the Boers?

By that standard, Rome, Venice, Sumeria, Babylon, Assyria, Byzantines, Iroquois, Shoshone, etc...shouldn't be civs, since they aren't countries today.

Oh, yes, if you want to complain about those being horribly cliche - then yes.

Canada should be the forest civ (fur trade, lumber trade, maple sugar trade), not the tundra civ, and its tundra bonuses should come from bonuses on forest tundra, not tundra farms.

Not much to do with Firaxis making Canada French, though, which they did not - if anything Tundra farming is a horribly misguided attempt at representing the settlement of the Prairies, since that's what the UA name (the last, best west) historically refers to.

I don't see how Canada beat the Boers for a slot...Canada is essentially just a northern version of the US, with a dash of French seasoning. Boers are a unique people. No one can tell Americans and (Anglo) Canadians apart. Not by accent, not by clothing, not by hobbies/music tastes, not by phenotype, etc...they are interchangeable, and French Canadians are also interchangeable from French Frenchmen. Maybe they can tell each other apart, but no one else can...having both the US and Canada is like having both the Orange Free State and the South African Republic, or having both Mexico and Guatemala, or having both Argentina and Uruguay.

Sounds like a bastardized Flemish dialect to me.

Sure there is a valid reason.

"Ons" is used for a "voorwerpsvorm" and "we" (wij) for an "onderwerpsvorm" - do these words have meaning to you ?

wij / ons

Wij (of we) is de onderwerpsvorm van de eerste persoon meervoud. Ons is de voorwerpsvorm. Twijfel tussen wij en ons is mogelijk na dan, als en zoals. In de meeste van die gevallen is het aan te bevelen om de vorm wij te gebruiken, omdat de zin een onderwerpsvorm vereist. In sommige gevallen is...

www.vlaanderen.be

Interesting Boer War scenario here btw.

The Boer War (TBW)

Just got this and all I can say, is great work, I really like it, although, why is there a tech called Future Tech? Why don't you put it in Era NONE?

forums.civfanatics.com

Subject vs object, yes, I know, but it's not necessary, since that can all be deduced from context.

That scenario looks cool, but I can't find a working download link.

Canadian UU doesn't ride on moose, though? The mounties are on horses.

The Canadian Mounties have to take care of the moose, LOL

No but they could definitely be.
American pioneer expansion westward and becoming a hegemonic superpower go together easily if you look at the history.

Yet the Americans refused to come to the aid of the Boer Republics, which says a lot about their nation and its values.

Well, no, not really. We have differences in priorities, values, and even culture from Americans - and a statistical majority aversion to annexation by our Southern neighbour - that is not strictly tied to the presence of Quebec.

Do Canadians love to eat burgers and ride in pickup trucks?

 

[Patine]

I don't see how Canada beat the Boers for a slot...Canada is essentially just a northern version of the US, with a dash of French seasoning. Boers are a unique people. No one can tell Americans and (Anglo) Canadians apart. Not by accent, not by clothing, not by hobbies/music tastes, not by phenotype, etc...they are interchangeable, and French Canadians are also interchangeable from French Frenchmen. Maybe they can tell each other apart, but no one else can...having both the US and Canada is like having both the Orange Free State and the South African Republic, or having both Mexico and Guatemala, or having both Argentina and Uruguay.

Well, I could, if I felt vindictive and stereotyping, say Afrikaaners, Dutch, Flemish, and Frisians, aren't that different to me, and Surinamese and Netherlands Antilleans are just in the same group with darker skin. But, I'm not that vindictive and stereotyping, and it would make you more friends to stop being so, as well.

Do Canadians love to eat burgers and ride in pickup trucks?

I've seen quite a few pictures of rural South Africa with pichup trucks and jeeps driving over the Velt and Karoo. They're great for our - and your - rougher, less settled terrains. And, I have it on authority from someone who's lived there that there are at least three McDonald's outlets in Durban. Besides, hamburgers originally came from Northwestern Germany (hence, Hameburg -er, you know?), though I believe they're prepared differently there, and in different types of restaurants. It was German-Americans in Chicago who brought the ones we know across the Atlantic, along with frankfurters (Frankfurt - er - s).

 

[Uncle Paul]

Well, I could, if I felt vindictive and stereotyping, say Afrikaaners, Dutch, Flemish, and Frisians, aren't that different to me, and Surinamese and Netherlands Antilleans are just in the same group with darker skin. But, I'm not that vindictive and stereotyping, and it would make you more friends to stop being so, as well.

Actually, Dutch blood is a minority in Afrikaners - the main components are Dutch, German, and Huguenot, about 5-10% of Boer heritage or so is from other groups.
Kruger is a German surname. Pretorius is the Latinized version of a German surname.

I've seen quite a few pictures of rural South Africa with pichup trucks and jeeps driving over the Velt and Karoo. They're great for our - and your - rougher, less settled terrains. And, I have it on authority from someone who's lived there that there are at least three McDonald's outlets in Durban. Besides, hamburgers originally came from Northwestern Germany (hence, Hameburg -er, you know?), though I believe they're prepared differently there, and in different types of restaurants. It was German-Americans in Chicago who brought the ones we know across the Atlantic, along with frankfurters (Frankfurt - er - s).

Are Boers known for eating burgers and riding in pickup trucks the way Americans are?

 

[Patine]

Actually, Dutch blood is a minority in Afrikaners - the main components are Dutch, German, and Huguenot, about 5-10% of Boer heritage or so is from other groups.
Kruger is a German surname. Pretorius is the Latinized version of a German surname.

Are Boers known for eating burgers and riding in pickup trucks the way Americans are?

The point is your double-standards. You feel free to stereotype, glom together, make broad, sweeping generalizations, and diminish and downplay notable features and great achievements, of numerous cultures, nations, peoples, and historic civilizations, while insisting that a short-lived, agrarian nation in a part of the world known by most, today, either in an infamous social light, or for the new, Mandela-era South Africa, far moreso, be unrealistically over-emphasized by all, and you can't seem to understand how others do not share your priorities.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't see how Canada beat the Boers for a slot...Canada is essentially just a northern version of the US, with a dash of French seasoning. Boers are a unique people. No one can tell Americans and (Anglo) Canadians apart. Not by accent, not by clothing, not by hobbies/music tastes, not by phenotype, etc...they are interchangeable, and French Canadians are also interchangeable from French Frenchmen. Maybe they can tell each other apart, but no one else can...having both the US and Canada is like having both the Orange Free State and the South African Republic, or having both Mexico and Guatemala, or having both Argentina and Uruguay.

You've obviously never been to the Southern U.S., or at least heard one talk, right? Then you have Louisiana which also has French seasoning. Sure, maybe some places I will give you are similar in culture, like Vermont and other border states come to mind, but I see way more differences if you look across both countries.
It also helps out that Sid Meier, the creator of Civilization, was born in Canada.

Are Boers known for eating burgers and riding in pickup trucks the way Americans are?

I guess I'm not an American then because I don't really care for eating burgers.

 

[Uncle Paul]

The point is your double-standards. You feel free to stereotype, glom together, make broad, sweeping generalizations, and diminish and downplay notable features and great achievements, of numerous cultures, nations, peoples, and historic civilizations, while insisting that a short-lived, agrarian nation in a part of the world known by most, today, either in an infamous social light, or for the new, Mandela-era South Africa, far moreso, be unrealistically over-emphasized by all, and you can't seem to understand how others do not share your priorities.

Boers are far more different from the Dutch than Quebec people are from the French...Quebec and France are practically the same in terms of culture.

You've obviously never been to the Southern U.S., or at least heard one talk, right? Then you have Louisiana which also has French seasoning. Sure, maybe some places I will give you are similar in culture, like Vermont and other border states come to mind, but I see way more differences if you look across both countries.

Many US Southerners speak no differently than other Americans. Listen to Ed Helms (a comedian and actor)...he sounds no different in terms of accent.

It also helps out that Sid Meier, the creator of Civilization, was born in Canada.

Is he even still involved in the making of Civ games, or do they just use his name with no involvement from him?

I guess I'm not an American then because I don't really care for eating burgers.

Occasionally, you can find a South African who doesn't like Boerewors. It happens.

 

[Patine]

Boers are far more different from the Dutch than Quebec people are from the French...Quebec and France are practically the same in terms of culture.

English Canadians are not the same as Americans, and Quebecois are not the same as Continental French. Any belief they are is simply lack of cultural and historical knowledge, and, seemingly, in this case, stubborn clinging to that lack of knowledge of refusal to learn better - a phenomenon called, "willful ignorance."

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Many US Southerners speak no differently than other Americans. Listen to Ed Helms (a comedian and actor)...he sounds no different in terms of accent.

You used one example of an actor who was born in Georgia, but then went to college and has lived most of his early adult life in New York City, therefore possibly changing up his accent. Sorry but you can't convince me of someone who has lived in Boston their whole life having the same accent as someone from New Orleans.

 

[Uncle Paul]

You used one example of an actor who was born in Georgia, but then went to college and has lived most of his early adult life in New York City, therefore possibly changing up his accent. Sorry but you can't convince me of someone who has lived in Boston their whole life having the same accent as someone from New Orleans.

Your accent is pretty much set by 13 or so.

English Canadians are not the same as Americans, and Quebecois are not the same as Continental French. Any belief they are is simply lack of cultural and historical knowledge, and, seemingly, in this case, stubborn clinging to that lack of knowledge of refusal to learn better - a phenomenon called, "willful ignorance."

They are indistinguishable unless you look at their passports.

 

[Patine]

They are indistinguishable unless you look at their passports.

Maybe to you, but frankly, you should around more and deal with more people outside your region and comfort zone before making such sweeping generalizations and stereotypes as though they were, when they certainly aren't. Perhaps you should dust off your passport, there.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Maybe to you, but frankly, you should around more and deal with more people outside your region and comfort zone before making such sweeping generalizations and stereotypes as though they were, when they certainly aren't. Perhaps you should dust off your passport, there.

I bet you couldn't tell someone from Seattle apart from someone from Vancouver based on their accents...

 

[Patine]

I bet you couldn't tell someone from Seattle apart from someone from Vancouver based on their accents...

And that's another ridiculous flaw with your reasoning. A crippling flaw. Judging differences in culture, society, values, general priorities, history, and national self-identification by, "accent of a language," alone. You pretty much lose the argument right there (not that you had any winning points in this one, elsewhere).

 

[BuchiTaton]

America isn't really a pioneer civ in most iterations of CIV...have America be a hegemonic superpower, and leave the ragamuffin pioneers to the Boers, who did a better job of it than the United States.

In-game civs are not designed as "hegemonic power", be an hegemonic power is the general way to secure multiple victory options in CIVs.
The key is how to become the hegemonic power, and the proper way for USA to do it is being The Pioneer civ.
America settlement and expansion is way bigger in every way possible than Boers one, and Americans succeded to defeat the British when Boers didnt. To be the "Continental Superpower" in game, players using America should do what USA did, expand agressively to take land and attrack immigrants for further growing those new cities.
Pioneer, a settler than can explore and defend by itself > Saloon, to attract immigration to your cities > "Land of the Free" each immigrant have a chance to produce a Great People.
So the player must secure land with their Pioneers to start the process to become a well rounded hegemonic power with USA, not more gratuitous small sizes cultural America.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

To be the "Continental Superpower" in game, players using America should do what USA did, expand agressively to take land and attrack immigrants for further growing those new cities.
Pioneer, a settler than can explore and defend by itself > Saloon, to attract immigration to your cities > "Land of the Free" each immigrant have a chance to produce a Great People.

Not sure if I'd want America to focus on immigration, considering I'd love for Argentina to get in and that could be their niche, but other than that I like your ideas.
I'd also probably replace the Saloon with a Drive-In-Theater and make it produce culture based off the population of the city it was built.

As for the topic of this thread I've come to mind that I'd rather see South Africa as a civ over the Boers. I at least think they could have Boer influences such as their leader speaking Afrikaans. Nelson Mandela was also known to learn how to speak it. I don't think I'd be ready for it to arrive however until we reach about 60 civs or more.

 

[Uncle Paul]

And that's another ridiculous flaw with your reasoning. A crippling flaw. Judging differences in culture, society, values, general priorities, history, and national self-identification by, "accent of a language," alone. You pretty much lose the argument right there (not that you had any winning points in this one, elsewhere).

Apparently the UsefulCharts Youtuber is Canadian, but I could never tell from his accent.

Not sure if I'd want America to focus on immigration, considering I'd love for Argentina to get in and that could be their niche, but other than that I like your ideas.
I'd also probably replace the Saloon with a Drive-In-Theater and make it produce culture based off the population of the city it was built.

Maybe we could have Chile in the game, led by Pinochet. That would be awesome.

As for the topic of this thread I've come to mind that I'd rather see South Africa as a civ over the Boers. I at least think they could have Boer influences such as their leader speaking Afrikaans. Nelson Mandela was also known to learn how to speak it. I don't think I'd be ready for it to arrive however until we reach about 60 civs or more.

Why would you prefer South Africa over the Boers? The Boers are a much more culturally cohesive unit.