Why I think industrious is for high level player

[JujuLautre]

I always disregarded industrious, mostly because I don't know how to use this trait effectively. So I thought about this, though again, and told to myself I could share these thoughts with you people here.

First of all: what does industrious provide?

Quick forges: this is pretty straightforward. Forges are very good buildings, combining both better production, an engineer specialist and, in good cases, happiness. I have Metal Casting? Let's build forges! They are quick to build and the reward is clear.

Quick national wonders: handy, see "quick forges".

Quick world wonders: I overcame my "Ooooooooh, shiny" wonder addiction (Civ II pawa) some time ago, and so did not know any more what to do with that. What does this allow? Eh, quick wonders, I just said it. Now, consider it a little more carefully, I told to myself.

At low level, I can build every wonder I want. This part of the trait becomes next to useless. At high level, it seems it allows players to build wonders more easily. I don't know, because either I don't build wonders, or I build them while winning
Now Juju, consider again. This is not a good argument. You don't play at low level. People who play at low level play these levels because they are struggling with it. They also have problems racing for wonders; perhaps not as much as emperor+ level, but they still have problems. So this is not level related.

What becomes level-related is this: why would I want this wonder? What do I do to leverage industrious to get this wonder? Should I beeline for the wonder-tech or is it less usefull? And very important: what do I do if I fail the race? All these questions seems very important to me, and of the level of experienced players. I have some ideas about some of the wonders, but because I don't race for any of them anymore since noble, I did not master this skill.

So I beg for advices, for experiences of good players, who know how to leverage industrious correctly, who know how to leverage the presence of a wonder, and who have back-up plans for when it fails. Please, share your wisdom to the wonder-newbie I am! Unless you plan to tell me to go indutrious so I can build chicken pizza of course

 

[Jet]

I think the value of wonders varies greatly with the specific game, and even with Industrious on the availability of production multiplier resources.

Examples from Warlords games in this forum:
HC Ind/Fin: found religion, Oracle -> Monarchy, shrine Prophet, skip Hunting, stuff capital with Quechuas.
Ramses Ind/Spi: Pyramids -> specialist economy

One can always build wonders for the purpose of getting extra wealth if the build fails, but it's not much better than working cottages or specialists.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Quick forges: this is pretty straightforward. Forges are very good buildings, combining both better production and, in good cases, happiness. I have Metal Casting? Let's build forges! They are quick to build and the reward is clear.

You missed the Engineer.

And very important: what do I do if I fail the race?

In that case, you get gold instead. And since your hammers were being multiplied by your trait on the way in, you are getting more gold back than your non-industrious colleagues.

Sulla's been saying forever that it's the forges that really matter.

 

[Roxlimn]

I'd have to agree, though I only play at the Noble level. You want Industrious for the Great Engineers.

 

[JujuLautre]

You missed the Engineer.

Exact, I'll correct my post in a moment

In that case, you get gold instead. And since your hammers were being multiplied by your trait on the way in, you are getting more gold back than your non-industrious colleagues.

I know this, I know you get a pay-back. But even if gold can replace the oracle in some way because it will allow you to make deficit research to develop the tech by yourself, it will not always replace it. How can gold replace the great wall in the early game? We don't have diplomat to bribe units anymore

Sulla's been saying forever that it's the forges that really matter.

The point is that lot's of people say that industrious is handy in monarch+ to get wonders (so, they want to get wonders), lot's of people play industrious leader, and it has never been seen as a very weak trait in all the polls about traits. People should have their reasons for all of this? I don't think all of them think only about the forges. And I want to hear everyone's voice, not only Sulla's through VoiceOfUnreason's

 

[JujuLautre]

I'd have to agree, though I only play at the Noble level. You want Industrious for the Great Engineers.

Everyone can get great engineers with a forge. It's just quicker with industrious leaders, so I'm not sure this is a valuable argument.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Industrious is a funny trait. Too low a level and you can get any wonder you want anyway. Too high and you can't get any wonders. I think its good on Prince, Great (top tier) on Monarch and good on Emperor. Other levels not so good.

On Monarch I will establish a wonder dominant capital running bureaucracy and org religion. I will aim at getting 80% of the wonders and using these wonders for GPP for more and more great people. When not building a wonder I will run specialists in the capital - it will be my national epic city.

If I have stone, then I expect to get pyramids, stonehenge, oracle, great wall, great library and maybe parthenon.

If I have marble, then I expect to get pyramids, oracle, parthenon, temple of artemis and great library.

I will be running representation early, getting lots of science from specialists and lots of production for buildings.

On Emperor what I can get drops. Probably Pyramids, Oracle, Great Library and one other wonder. I suspect on Immortal it drops further again. But on Monarch, I am convinced this is one of the most powerful openings.

 

[madscientist]

When I first for CIV I never really utilized Industrious well, now it is one of my favorite traits. I have won with all 36 warlord leaders (Victoria is almost won) at marathon speed/huge maps/prince level. Some comments

1) I usually will try to get the oracle on all leaders but definitely try my hardest with industrious (even Stalin who is as far from religions as you can get). I will always take metal casting as the free tech. I will always bild the Colossus early.

2) Point #1 gets me fast ealry forges (VERY, VERY early) plus an engineer in all cities. Extremely productive early on. The colossus so early means your are a financial civ on water tiles all the way through Astronomy. So even if you get no other wonders the oracle and colossus are big for industious civs; however you do need to agressively pursue the oracle as other industrious/spiritual civs work on it early. The colosus cannot be lost if you get the oracle.

3) 50% production on national wonders alone is pretty decent itself since you save hammers for more troops.

4) You should be assured of getting the great library as the AI does not go down the writing/alphabet/literature track very fast in a non-capital city. This would allow you to set up a great scientists farm somewhere else which is not poluted by engineers/profits/merchants like the the oracle/collusus city.

5) If you can get the pyramids (always try as ind) represention plus the great library is awesome science-wise.

6) Wonders give benfits even if they require hammers which could be spent on troops (I have noticed people say this oftern on the forums). I say take as many as you can. However note every wonder you build has wasted alot of hammers for some other AI and often multiple AIs are working on the same wonder (Since I run huge maps that is 11 other Ais). The AI's get cash but the upgrade units so cheaply it does not help them as much, they usually use it to trade for techs anyway (does not help them that much in my opinion).

7) Late game wonders when you have factories/coal plants: very fast SoL if you build it in the ironworks city with a factory (it is worrth waiting to build this wonder as I am sure alot of AI's try building it in non-iron works/factoried cities). Massive happiness beneits by landing eifel tower /broadway/rockroll/hollywood plus the income by trading these resources.

8) Faster construction of space elvator helps space race. Faster Pentagon helps war-mongering. Faster UN helps diplomacy. Faster late happiness wonders helps cultural wins. Something for everyone by nailing late wonders!!

9) Final note about getting the wonders, great person points. Get enough of them in one city, plus the parathanon (AI builds this very slowly) in a non-core city (so the great artist GP points do not polute the pool) and you are almost a philosphical leader add the specialists and you are at least until chemistry.

10) Final Final note: Early on do not fall into building wonders in every city you have to remember to defend against barbs. For this reason I beeline the great wall especially if I got stone (more so than pyramids).

My ideal early build order

Great wall/oracle/colossus/pyramids/great library/parthanon. Toss in the great lighthouse if I have ALOT of costal cities or potential costal cities and stonehenge if I am louis or have an ealry religion and have stone.

At the least get the oracle and get metal casting for free. That is what Industrious is about.

 

[madscientist]

correct last section. I will go for Stonehenge IF I have access to stone and I am NOT Louis or a religious leader (RamsesII HC).

 

[carl corey]

I've won my only two Emperor games so far using Industrious leaders.

In one of them I was Bismarck and I built Great Wall, Pyramids, Stonehenge, Great Library and Hanging Gardens (got Stone for it) in the capital. Needless to say I got lots of Great Engineers and Great Scientists from that city. I ended up with a Space Race victory in which 2 GEs helped me build the Three Gorges Dam and 1 GE helped with the Space Elevator, despite having less than half of a continent in territory.

The other was with Huayna Capac, I built the Oracle for Metal Casting and got lucky to have a Great Engineer from forge+Oracle in the same city to spend on Pyramids. Even though I lost the Liberalism race I killed Ramses who beat me to it then proceeded to get a tech lead and finished with a Domination win.

So yeah, early and cheap wonders do help a lot. So do forges. In my latest game I was struggling to get the Great Library with a non-industrious civ and without marble and only got it because the only industrious AI decided to build the Pyramids. Of course you can win without it, but it is a good trait to have on Emperor.

 

[madscientist]

Not to beat a dead horse but getting the oracle for metal casting is so powerful on this trait. If I am mistaken let me know but I do not know any other way to get metal casting that early unless you get lucky enough with an early great merchant from the greta lighthouse and lightbulb it (does currency go first?). You get early forges early versus all other AIs including other ind. leaders. Other fast bulidng for other traits can be researched fairly evenly, spiritual temples are available at priesthood creative libraries at writing, agressive barracks from the first city, protectve walls from masonry, expansive graneries from pottery; but industrial is the only one (other than philosophical) with a later fast building and it's "talent" fast wonder offers a way to open that up with the oracle. Phil is similar with it's fast multiple great scientists to beeline education and fast universities.

 

[futurehermit]

If I have stone: GW + Pyramids in capital (killer). Plus I'll chop out the parthenon (cheap, the AI delays it) it a production city (so I minimize the GAs). Then use GE on GL and chop out the NE to start cranking GSs for the lib race. This is my fav strategy.

If I have marble: Stonehenge, Oracle, and ToA in same city, all chopped if possible. This will start cranking prophets. Theology gets bulbed, christianity shrine (spread it like crazy), then you can decide what you want to do with the rest, including settling them in your capital. Again, parthenon in a production city to help with your gp generation. GL and NE in a different city to get some GS for the lib race.

If I have both stone and marble I will prioritize GW, pyramids, GL, NE, parthenon and go SE. I will beeline banking at some point for mercantilism and run representation-caste system-mercantilism-pacificism during a lot of the mid-game peacetime (liberalism run period). Then, once I hit renaissance, slap it into police state-nationhood-slavery-theocracy and go beat some people up

 

[Dirk1302]

I agree with you that Parthenon is a good wonder especially when non philosophical , the relative boost is greater in this case.

Being industrial or having marble i at least give this one a try nowadays.

 

[gettingfat]

I think the value of wonders varies greatly with the specific game, and even with Industrious on the availability of production multiplier resources.

Examples from Warlords games in this forum:
HC Ind/Fin: found religion, Oracle -> Monarchy, shrine Prophet, skip Hunting, stuff capital with Quechuas.

For HC Ind/Fin, sick of Quecha rush (which is miss or hit and very map dependent) and find Great Pyramid takeing too many hammers without stone (even with industrious), I recently start to use more and more Feudalism slingshot whenever I get floodplain start (good place for insane cottaging, but not many forests to chop).

So instead of using Oracle for free monarchy, I research monarchy by myself. Trust me, the money generated from early floodplain cottaging will allow you to discover monarchy early enough (monarchy is right after priesthood and writing, writing is just next following pottery, so you don't waste any beaker on any techs not needed). The ind. trait will help the Oracle race even w/o marble (& save a few precious turns because you can skip masonry). Switch to Vassalage and Hereditary ruling. Get 1 or 2 cities to keep growing and insanely cottaging for money. Two production cities to pump level 2 units such as CR2/shock axes and cover longbows non-stop. Research alphabet at the mean time. Once you are ready your high-quality units will allow you to beat the crxp out of your neighbour. With alphabet you can extort some techs. This will give you a very solid foundation.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I think Industrious is fairly flexible, and that's why it's good. The forges are the big bang for you buck proposition, because they come really cheap for what they do. It also makes it easy to get the Colossus(provided you're not super late or something) because, let's face it....how many games do you play where you don't have copper? You basically get it on a silver platter. Everything else...well, a lot of strategies can benefit by pocketing the right wonder or two. I view it as an excellent support trait. The less hammers you're spending on wonders, the more mens you're making to smash the enemy!

 

[budweiser]

The less hammers you're spending on wonders, the more mens you're making to smash the enemy!

Let's add it up:

Industrious - Start
Forge - Metal Casting
Organized Religion - Monotheism
Math - Math
Stone or marble - masonry
Chop - BW

Thats a lot of hammers right there to go into any single wonder. Add enough workers and the chop is in one turn. Doe anyone ever actually plan ahead to take advantage of that?

 

[dutchking]

Industrious is my favorite trait. I like to build a lot of wonders, while at the same time have a large military. Industrious helps with both of those, but it doesn't have any smilies or anything in it's effects so I think people are turned off by that!

 

[futurehermit]

Well, you have to look at the synergy as well:

Mono = poly + masonry
Oracle = poly + priesthood
Take MetCast off of the oracle
That leaves you with math (I'm assuming you go BW right away), which is not an overly expensive tech.

The problem, however, is that by that point most of the early-game wonders are gone...

 

[madscientist]

Well, you have to look at the synergy as well:

Mono = poly + masonry
Oracle = poly + priesthood
Take MetCast off of the oracle
That leaves you with math (I'm assuming you go BW right away), which is not an overly expensive tech.

The problem, however, is that by that point most of the early-game wonders are gone...

Add mysticism unless you are HC. He's the only industrious civ to start with it.

 

[budweiser]

Well, you have to look at the synergy as well:

Mono = poly + masonry
Oracle = poly + priesthood
Take MetCast off of the oracle
That leaves you with math (I'm assuming you go BW right away), which is not an overly expensive tech.

The problem, however, is that by that point most of the early-game wonders are gone...

Math can be lightbulbed with a library in place or researched. There would still be plenty of good stuff open like colossus, parthenon, hanging gardens, great libray, sistine, notre dame, NE, HE, etc etc.