Why I think Spain didn't get a 2nd leader:

I guess Ferdinand and Isabella are about as good as you get for a combined Spain. As I said, if you take the pre-unified Spanish kingdom, I would probably pick Ferdinand I (of Leon), Ferdinand III of Castile, or his son Alphonso X. There are, of course, other good picks. Do you count the Visigoths?

Breunor
 
Isabella was a pre-unification Spanish monarch (actually, Spain was never fully unified). Good point about the Visigoths. Of course you can count them; they got totally Romanized, and hence are no less ethnically "Spanish" than Isabella. Leovigild maybe?
 
Charles V was significantly ruler of Castile during the golden age of the conquistadors, the conquest of Aztec Confederation and the Incan Empire. He was however primarily Holy Roman Emperor and ruler of Germany, hence why the Aztecs were told to submit "to the Emperor", and hence why people call him "Charles V" and not "Charles I".

And he was the one who had to deal with Martin Luther...
I really think Karl V. Kaiser des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Deutscher Nationen would have been a good choice :king:
 
Prester,

Did you confuse yourself? He was Charles I of SPAIN, Charles V was his 'other' foreign name.

Breunor

Oops! Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I did get those mixed up, as I often do with Spanish monarchs. I remember reading one history of medieval Spain, and having to deal with three concurrent Alfonsos ruling three different kingdoms, not to mention the contemporaneous Catalonian counts "Ramon Berenguer II" and "Berenguer Ramon II"...
 
Not true - Alexander ruled all Greece and beyond.

not true - Alexander didn't rule Sparta, the only city that didn't resist his attack. but i *think* they were semi-vassals or something.

i wonder how Leonidas would compare against Alexander.
 
Or maybe Firaxis they agrees with me, that Spanish history is BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, it is only interesting when they were owned by other people like Romans and Muslims.
 
not true - Alexander didn't rule Sparta, the only city that didn't resist his attack. but i *think* they were semi-vassals or something.

i wonder how Leonidas would compare against Alexander.

Well, after the Spartan 'revolt', they pretty much fell under Macedonian rule.

Leonidas is famous, but usually isn't considered to being close to the 'best' Spartan general. But you can't even compare Archidamus, Brasidus, Cleomones, or Lysander to Alexander. Some people view Agesilas as a 'great' Spartan general, but even he doesn't compare to Alexander as a military man.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
Well, after the Spartan 'revolt', they pretty much fell under Macedonian rule.

Leonidas is famous, but usually isn't considered to being close to the 'best' Spartan general. But you can't even compare Archidamus, Brasidus, Cleomones, or Lysander to Alexander. Some people view Agesilas as a 'great' Spartan general, but even he doesn't compare to Alexander as a military man.

Best wishes,

Breunor

that Leonidas thing was just a half :joke:. :D
 
I was a bit shocked when not a single Hapsburg made it into BtS. I thought that if Spain were to get another leader, it would definitely have been Charles V, who played such an integral role in European history.

Then I heard that HRE would be in, but under Charlemagne. I am not hatin' on the dark age fanatics out there, but I think Marie Therese (another unsung leader in the civ franchise) or Charles would have been at least more palatable than this controversial character.

Anyway, I guess I will have to continue harassing Izzy by converting everyone else to my relgion and not hers...
 
BTW, Isabella was not the religious fanatic her psycho characterization in Civ 4 makes her out to be; she had the same kind of piety that most medieval rulers in the Christian and Islamic world had.

Well, it is even said in Spain she was very religious (still, that does not mean fanaticism or xenophobia towards the other religions). The issues (big issues) with muslims and jews are often explained in political terms: due to the will to use religion in order to create a "national identity" that kept the iberic lands together. True, that is ethnical cleanising, and that unfortunately has been quite common in history in order to generate a power base.

breunor said:
Well, Phillip II was important but was an AWFUL leader for Spain. He probably single-handedly ended Spanish hegemony. He bankrupt the country and lead to the horrendous Armada loss. Yech!
Tough no one can deny he was not the best leader, neither he was the worst. There were as well important victories, mainly against the Turks (Lepanto). The cultural golden ages started at his reign; And lately I read bankrupts were not that bad, but means to pressure the Fugger and other bankers to get better deals (indeed, he inherited a lot of debts from his father). Indeed, we already have a lot of not-so-good leaders in the game, speaking of raw power of its nation from the start to the end of his reign, the importance is if they were influential... and indeed Philip II was influential in forging Spanish Empire mindset. A flawed mindset, maybe, but inluential in any case.


In any case, I have to defy the original statement of the topic:

... Isabella was such a good leader that they couldn't think of anyone else to fill her shoes. I think so too.

As already has been comented, the first "else" is her husband Ferdinand, as much good leader as her, and probably complementary. I like the descriptions that have been made of him as:

windbourne said:
he was a great military mind, and very talented at raising funds for his wars, which was something a lot of kingdoms weren't so good at. It was their TEAM that made Spain have such a great start

And I'd add he also had a gread diplomatic mind. It is said he forged the whole marital policy of his (and Isabella's) sons. (focused in isolating France -the main contender for pre-American spanish area of expansion: Italy; and that in the end gave greater benefits incorporating part of the HRE to spain)

Philip II might be not so good but indeed Charles V (Phi/Imp) is (tough he has the problem of being a leader for other civ as well - he ended being more Spanish than Austrian, tough). Also, I list below a list of leaders that could stand in front of isabella in order of preference:

Charles V
Ferdinand
Pelayo (starter of reconquista, mithycal leader that mostly all spain would agree to have <-- And that in spain is a BIG plus)
Leovigild (Visigoth, 1st political unity of Hispania)
Alphonse VIII of Castille (led all spanish christian kings in the most decisive battle of the reconquista (Navas de Tolosa) - thus can be considered leader of all spain, and not just castille)
Reccared (Visigoth, 1st religious unity of Hispania)
Alphonse X the Wise (Castille) outstanding king of castille, both cultural and militarily - primus in ther pares amongst the peninsular kings after the death of James I (he was his father in law, also).
James I the Conqueror (Aragon) outstanding king of aragon, both cultural and militarily - primus in ther pares amongst the peninsular kings.

Also, nice leaders for Spain (even if not so "shiny" would be)
Philip II
Count-Duke of Olivares (the real power behind Philip IV - and he would make a very funny leaderhead, for sure)
Charles III of Bourbon.

This is a partial list, and there are already 8 leaders toe-to-toe (if not superior to isabella) and other 3 that, while inferior, would not have problem being portrayed along her. So, not leaders for spain is a fallacy (a word quite used now in these forums :p)
 
I was a bit shocked when not a single Hapsburg made it into BtS.
This shocks me too. They were such an influential part of history. Not necessarily each person when examined in their own regard, basically "out of context." The Hapsburgers had a de-facto alliance that transcended the contibutions of any single individual.

In any event, back to the OP, the question that comes to my mind about Isabella is how you define "Good". Was she a good ruler in how she historically defined her culture, or was she a good ruler in the game and gives good gameplay balance?

If the former, I think no. There were quite a few parts of Spanish culture that she did not represent. In fact, I think she would have been insulted by the notion that she represented the greedy conquistadore "gold-hungry" faction or the ultra-religious "inquisition" faction (for lack of a better term), among others.

If the latter, I think no. There is plenty of room for another Spanish leader to have good synchronicity with the Spanish UB and UU, while representing other characteristics of the Spanish history.

Wodan
 
Is it really necessary for the leaders in Civ to have been actual political rulers in real life? I don't think so. India has Gandhi...

The game should include more influential people who were not rulers.

Spain could have El Cid, or even the fictional Don Quixote (or maybe his creator Miguel de Cervantes). What about one of the conquistadores?
 
Hernando Cortes MIGHT be a good leader, but I would still prefer Phillip II or Ferdinand of Aragon or something like that.
 
Isabella and Ferdinand were of course very religiously interested, but I agree that one of the reasons for the strong emphasize on religion, was due to them wanting to create a stronger national feeling, thus throwing out Moors and Jews (at least those who didnt convert). But one must not forget, that Torquemada, the founder of the Spanish Inquisition, was a great inspiration for the rulers, and it was probably him that was primus motor on the most obvious display of the spanish religious "fanatism" when the above-mentioned groups were kicked out of spain in late fifteenth century.

Also, regarding Philip II, he wasnt nearly as religious interested as Isabella and Ferdinand. It was rather the times that has changed due to the new-found Lutheranism and the Calvinism that came shortly afterwards, thus threatening the Catholicism. But most of the time, Philip was in conflict with the papal see, and his interest was more national, and mostly personal, in comparison to Catholicism in whole. You could then have a leader with 2 completely different traits. I would suggest protective for one, as his politic mostly was about enforcing the spanish borderlines, from foreign heretic religions. A politic, that in the end was implicated in the so-called decline of spain, as the cultural life got severed due to this isolationistic way aka. lesser contact with the rest of the renaissance thinkers.
Hard to say what the other trait could be. At least not financial or aggressive (bankrupt and loss at the armada thingy :D)

I think Charles V might be a harder choice though at some points more succesful, cause his involvement in HRE. Its going to be too confusing. But I definetely wote for a Habsburg, so I say Philip II

Btw, Olivares is an intersting choice :D
 
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