Why include Portugal???

[fsume93]

Ok, Enlighten me. Why should Portugal be included as a Civ in Civ 3? This IS NOT intended to be a flame, I would just like to know what made Portugal a great civilization/culture worthy of inclusion in this game.

What did they do above and beyond their neighbor Spain? Here in the year 2000 they are grossly overshadowed by Spain. The only lasting presence of Portuguese exploration and conquest is Brazil (speaks Portuguese), correct? All of South and Central America with the exception of Brazil is Spanish speaking due to Spain exploring and conquering them.

It was the Spanish Armada that was so great at one time, not the Portuguese. Did they have a great Navy at one time? If so, what did it accomplish?

I know that they had some well know explorers. Can anyone name them and what they did for me? Also, who financed all these explorers? Was it Portugal or other Euro countries?

What Cultural greatness has Portugal added to the world?

What militarily signifigant achievements or technologies has Portugal made/discovered?

I honestly, in my skewed American education, can not remember any Portuguese contribution to the world other than explorer XXX finding location ZZZ.

Not to say that they werent important discoveries, at the time they were VERY important. But what has Portugal provided the world OVER TIME? My view currently is that if Portugal were included in Civ 3 or a later expansion pack that they would have their special unit at the very beginning of the game (like the Zulu) and be one of the weaker Civs.

Thanks for your time,

 

[shirleyrocks]

Uh...what? The Portuguese aren't in Civ3.

 

[fsume93]

i have seen several places on this board that some people think they should be in the game. I want these people to justify why they should be. I see no reason, obviously just as Firaxis saw no reason.

 

[NetDanzr]

I think that Portugal has more right to be a civ in Civ3 than, let's say, the Americans. Or Germans. Or English...

What I'd like to see is civilizations like Saxons, Kelts, Vikings, Huns, etc... And the ability of changing their names over time, maybe chosing a new name from a list at the beginning of every era.

 

[shirleyrocks]

Originally posted by NetDanzr
I think that Portugal has more right to be a civ in Civ3 than, let's say, the Americans. Or Germans. Or English...

With all due respect to the great people of Portugal and with full awareness that Portugal was a world power around 1500...well...I'd just LOVE to hear this one...

 

[fsume93]

NetDanzr,

You believe that Portugal has more reason to be in than USA, Germany, and Britain. Interesting. Give reasons Please.

I cant think of one...

Perhaps they have more reason than Zulu or Iroquois. I could buy that if someone could prove it.

 

[Achinz]

Besides the Iroquois and the Zulus, other civs less than or equal to the Portuguese would include the Mongols, Germans, Vikings among others. With the added focus on "culture" in the game, the present influence of the Portuguese can be seen in Brazil, Macau, Goa, East Timor among those that come to mind. In the end it's all a bit arbitrary.

 

[shirleyrocks]

Firaxis may have wanted to 'spread the civs out a bit'. There are a lot of European civilizations already represented. Just a guess.

 

[geake]

Portugal used to be a great a very powerful country. It had many colonies around the world: Brazil in south america, many islands in the atlantic ocean, Angola and Mozambique in south africa, and small colonies in eastern asia like Macao. Many great explorers were portuguese like Vasco de Gama who discovered the path towards India ... which maybe was helpful somehow...

That's all I can remember, and I'm pretty sure I don't remember much of it. I don't understand why you seem so furious on that topic.

You say Portugal would be the weakest civ in the game? Why so much comtempt?

Let's give some reason to you fsume. Portugal has more right to be in the game than america because america should appear in the game around 1800.

You say you can't think of any reason? But have tried to think about one?
I guess not.

What makes you so mad?

 

[Lt.Col. Kilgore]

Portugal has always been a small nation and in the 1500s had nothing better to do than explore. Most of Iberia was/is controlled by Spain who was locked in a war with Italy and France at the time. Portugal had 15 minutes of fame by default, while the United States is the most influential nation in the world at the moment(Capitalist Globalization?) By what you say, the Polynesians should be incuded as well. They've been colonising islands for thousands of years!

 

[geake]

Originally posted by Lt.Col. Kilgore
Portugal has always been a small nation and in the 1500s had nothing better to do than explore. Most of Iberia was/is controlled by Spain who was locked in a war with Italy and France at the time. Portugal had 15 minutes of fame by default, while the United States is the most influential nation in the world at the moment(Capitalist Globalization?) By what you say, the Polynesians should be incuded as well. They've been colonising islands for thousands of years!

Yeah sure!
And England and America have always been big nations.
When stuck on its island, england had nothing better to do than explore.

15 minutes of fame by default?
I don't understand why you people talk like that.
I can see in fsume's profile that one of his interests was history. Well obviously it isn't, he didn't even try to look on the internet what was special about Portugal. What do you think Portugal is? Part of the third world, a country where people are either farmers or bricklayers?

But sure you're right, usa is one of the most influential nation at the moment, and so was portugal in some other time. fsume wondered what portugal had provided the world OVER TIME, but what has america provided the world OVER TIME? Yes, I know what you're going to answer, freedom and wealth, at least maybe to one tenth of the world...

But the problem ain't there. The question is, why not include portugal, when you have the iroquois and the zulus and all the other civs actually?

And why not include the polynesians of course? Might be fun when playing on an archipelago map ... their special unit could be for example an early times small boat faster than a trireme or that would survive at sea. (some theory states that they were able to cross the pacific with their boats ... I think there are some maori legends in New Zealand about that)


Finally, I didn't mean that I wanted to see the US out of the set of civ's civ, I just wanted to show fsume that what he said was nonsense to me, that you could always find a good reaon to put a new civ in the game or to remove one from the game.

 

[knowltok]

My take:

The game represents the entire sweep of history. That is why you find the Americans and English alongside the Babylonians and Romans. The simple fact is that there are probably at least 100 cultures/nations that you could make a legitimate claim for inclusion. You could also make a claim against almost all of them too. If I have done the math right there are 15 combinations of abilities. Adding more than 16 nations would have led to duplications and aditional problems with game balance.
Stuck with 16 nations to pick and the various preasures against the developers in this regard I would say they did a good job.

America: It is an American game, made by Americans and will have huge sales in America. That's the way it is, get over it. Besides, I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who want to crush the American Civilization. The game would be less fun for them if it was absent.

Portugal: On the list of 100. Potentially a good choice, and certainly could be made in a mod, but Portugal was not a major power in Europe for an extended period of time. Considering the region it would be hard to justify taking out the British, French, Germans, Russians, Romans, or Greeks to include Portugal. This is not to belittle the Portugese accomplishments, but inclusion in the game would have ment someone else leaving, and it is hard to make a case for any of the other nations leaving.

Spain: Okay, I'm a little shocked spain wasn't included. But I guess once again that Europe was full.

 

[fsume93]

Come on people! You can do better.

Answer me inquiries, WHAT HAS PORTUGAL ACCOMPLISHED?

By the way, it was Diaz who sailed around the Cape of Good Hope (as we call it now) and discovered the sea trade route to India. If you are going to lecture me I at least expect you to be accurate.

Interesting how no one has mentioned Portugal's role in FINANCING the african slave trade.

 

[geake]

Originally posted by fsume93
Come on people! You can do better.

Answer me inquiries, WHAT HAS PORTUGAL ACCOMPLISHED?

By the way, it was Diaz who sailed around the Cape of Good Hope (as we call it now) and discovered the sea trade route to India. If you are going to lecture me I at least expect you to be accurate.

Interesting how no one has mentioned Portugal's role in FINANCING the african slave trade.

Well, obviously you were mistaken. I said that Vasco de Gama discovered the way to India, and I was right. Diaz stopped on the eastern shores of africa after sailing the cape of good hope that's right.

But will you tell us why you are so resentful against Portugal? Portugal financed the african slave trade? so what? So did america, spain, france, england, netherlands ... every single country that had economic interests in the new world did some slave trading.

What has portugal accomplished? You definitely seem to be obsessed by this question!
What has spain accomplished? Conquering south america? yes! half of it, the other half for the portuguese! And don't talk to me about the Invincible Armada, this fleet has been exterminated by the english fleet which was less numerous.


Come on! You can do better! Tell us what Portugal should have accomplished to be worth entering your personnal top twenty civ ranking!

 

[fsume93]

Geake, you miss the point. I never said i didnt like them as a matter of fact i have been there and like it. I was merely asking what they have done. No one, yourself included has answered my question with the exception of mentioning De Gama. That alone proves a huge point.

My question was brought about by numerous posts I have seen here and at Apolyton saying that Portugal should be one of the Civ's in this game, i could have substituted Portugal for any number of other ones. I merely am looking for an explanation why. One poster in particular is very anti U.S.

If you must attack me to bring attention away from your lack of an answer then so be it. Have a good day.

Some of you mention Portugal's "great exploration" yet you dont ever mention their even greater self defeating "isolationism" (call it a belief on self reliance if you like, at the expense of trade with other nations) they decided upon thereafter, defeated their global ambitions and hastening their fall from the ranks world leaders (or soon to be leaders). You see they had their chance, they blew it.

So much for the effort of trying to get reasonable discourse on a historical subject.

 

[geake]

Originally posted by fsume93
Geake, you miss the point. I never said i didnt like them as a matter of fact i have been there and like it. I was merely asking what they have done. No one, yourself included has answered my question with the exception of mentioning De Gama. That alone proves a huge point.

That proves nothing. I said they have been great conquerors at one time since they had so many colonies.

My question was brought about by numerous posts I have seen here and at Apolyton saying that Portugal should be one of the Civ's in this game, i could have substituted Portugal for any number of other ones. I merely am looking for an explanation why. One poster in particular is very anti U.S.

yeah! that's what I've said! You could substitute any other civ by any other civ. Is it the fact that one poster is anti US that makes you mad? I mean maybe those people you talk about are portuguese and would like to see portugal in civ3. I say why not?

If you must attack me to bring attention away from your lack of an answer then so be it. Have a good day.

I don't lack answer, you just don't seem willing to accept the fact that portugal could be one of the civ.

Some of you mention Portugal's "great exploration" yet you dont ever mention their even greater self defeating "isolationism" (call it a belief on self reliance if you like, at the expense of trade with other nations) they decided upon thereafter, defeated their global ambitions and hastening their fall from the ranks world leaders (or soon to be leaders). You see they had their chance, they blew it.

Self defeating isolationism? But you see, you just keep on saying that portuguese are just a big bunch of stupid fools who weren't able to stay on stage. They've been crushed by spain after their explorations and they become independant again around 1650 I think. That's what happen in civ, no? Some civs get crushed by others. Yes they had their chance, so did the persians and the babylonians.

So much for the effort of trying to get reasonable discourse on a historical subject.

I'm sorry but if historical subjects DO have to match your personnal beliefs to be interesting, then so be it. Portugal is worth no **** and you're the one who is right.

 

[fsume93]

Geake,

RELAX!

It is fact that they relied on their own explored territories to further their economy and empire at the expense of trade with other nations (see a common theme with USSR? Closed societies dont work). It failed, they were then surpassed by basically everyone.

Once again, you attack me instead of giving reasons for their being a top civ that should be in this game.

 

[geake]

Originally posted by fsume93
Geake,

RELAX!

It is fact that they relied on their own explored territories to further their economy and empire at the expense of trade with other nations (see a common theme with USSR? Closed societies dont work). It failed, they were then surpassed by basically everyone.

Once again, you attack me instead of giving reasons for their being a top civ that should be in this game.

Fsume, they may have chosen bad economic strategies, that doesn't make them unworthy of being a civ in the game.

They sure had problems with their colonies. Portugal is a small country that was too tied to spain. When they recovered their independance in 1640 (I checked) they couldn't keep all their colonies because of english, spanish and dutch militaristic pressure. That's right, they had to close themselves as you said, and were able to keep only brasil as a remain of their former colonial empire.

Nevertheless Portugal is a nation with a lot of history, a country that once had an influence on every continent of our world, and therefore could, I never said should, be a civ in the game.

 

[fsume93]

OK, so we agree that they do have some accomplishments.

I think they would be Expansionist but not sure of what else. I would argue not commercial because they ended up in financial ruin (as well as other types) based on their self reliant economic decisions. Perhaps military, but again no wealth of info on that.

 

[Magnum]

:crazyeyes
OK, lets try and close this thread and move to something more interesting like strategies, etc.

1st- I'm Portuguese
2nd- Portugal (like Spain and many others) was a worldpower in the past.
3rd-Is the 6th largest spoken language in the world (and that is not due to the 10 million inhabitants in Portugal)
4th-Until the 18th Century the destinies of Europe were often played in the new World controlled by the Portuguese and Spanish and not in Europe. We saw that recently during the cold war
5th-One thing that fsume93 should have learned in his "...skewed American education" is that Empires are not eternal. Currently, it seems America is the one - have fun while it lasts
6th- Alexander the great was not Greek, he was Macedonian. Go and find Macedonia in the map
7th-Firaxis decided that the Portuguese, Spanish, Macedonians
and many others should not appear in CIVIII. So what? LETS
PLAY THE GAME