Why is a joint war a formal war?

[pietro1990]

Ok this one is bothering me a long time.

The fact that you declare war with a buddy at someone still makes it a surprise war because you didn’t denounce someone. Of course you’re buddy wouldn’t mind and will see it as a forma war but the world shouldn’t..

Imagine if the world would be like oh Germany and Italy declared war on Poland oh then its fine we will not be angry at those countries.( yes I know in reality only Germany declared war). But lets be honest

declaring war without any reason without denunciation should give you a warmonger penalty.
Also the fact AI loves to abuse this thing without even thinking about positive relationships it just sees it as a trade deal. Friendly with 2 AI and then sudden formal wars they where trading … Or AI with no bordes and have to walk THE ENTIRE MAP TO REACH YOU declare war and then ask for peace after 10 turns withouth any combat because hey free trade deal.

Would like to see firaxis make other AI hate you for declaring a joint war except of course the person who joint the war of course. Olso make the Ai KNOW ITS A WAR NOT A TRADE DEAL so if he is happy with the target he will not accept.

Like i posted on this topic my solution for this problem is this:
My make the formal war option only available if BOTH PARTNERS DENOUNCED THE TARGET.

 

[criZp]

There's a mod "no joint war" that gets rid of that nonsense altogether.

 

[pietro1990]

There's a mod "no joint war" that gets rid of that nonsense altogether.

I know it exist i wonder if it would still work with rise and fall

it does remove the option to aks AI for a joint war.

My only solution to this is to make the formal war option only available if BOTH PARTNERS DENOUNCED THE TARGET.

 

[pietro1990]

There's a mod "no joint war" that gets rid of that nonsense altogether.

I know it exist i wonder if it would still work with rise and fall

it does remove the option to aks AI for a joint war.

My only solution to this is to make the formal war option only available if BOTH PARTNERS DENOUNCED THE TARGET.

 

[UWHabs]

Really, a joint war should give you the best warmonger among both parties. So if I can declare a holy war, I should be able to jointly declare a holy war with someone else. If neither side has denounced, then it's a joint surprise war.

 

[pgm123]

The AI would almost never go to war without joint war. It doesn't make total sense, but it's not that big of a deal, ultimately.

 

[bbbt]

Or AI with no bordes and have to walk THE ENTIRE MAP TO REACH YOU declare war and then ask for peace after 10 turns withouth any combat because hey free trade deal.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I'm actually okay with this portion if it's done 'logically': i.e. Civ A thinks, oh no I want to sabotage Civ B but they are on the other side of the map. I'll pay some money to Civ C - next door to Civ A - and do a joint war, but not actually commit any troops. i.e. essentially the equivalent to Civ 5's paying Shaka to declare a war on an enemy (but you have to suffer a diplo penalty as well in 6).

Do I think the AI is operating that logically at this point, no. But if the rest of it is fixed, I don't think it's entirely illogical for the AI to joint war someone even if they don't plan to commit troops.

 

[Sagax]

The AI would almost never go to war without joint war. It doesn't make total sense, but it's not that big of a deal, ultimately.

Still annoying, though.

I can accept them DOWing me when it is clear that I am pissing them off with my actions. But for that they should actually denounce me or at least show up as unfriendly.

I can also accept them conspiring behind my back and doing a joint backstab. But then at least show this as a Surprise joint war, not a “Formal” war that came out of nothing else but a tea bag offering during a trade deal.

 

[Hans Castorp]

My complaint would be that joint war is limited to 2 civs declaring war on another. I'd like more options to build bigger alliances for joint wars,

 

[liv]

My complaint would be that joint war is limited to 2 civs declaring war on another. I'd like more options to build bigger alliances for joint wars,

Yeah that would be good. Wonder if emergencies can make that possible. You have 10 turns to liberate a city for instance

 

[Duuk]

Call-to-war and joint war mechanics are a hot mess. I hope (but I doubt) they have been cleaned up in RF.

 

[Sagax]

Yeah that would be good. Wonder if emergencies can make that possible. You have 10 turns to liberate a city for instance

Looks like it applies to all allies. So if you manage to ally 10 civs on a Huge map, then all power to you.

 

[Josephias]

Really, a joint war should give you the best warmonger among both parties. So if I can declare a holy war, I should be able to jointly declare a holy war with someone else. If neither side has denounced, then it's a joint surprise war.

Considering potential options, i think this one most sensible and appropiate - whit an if: lesser warmonger penalty should aply only if both joiners have a (military?) alliance. And in this case, joint war proposer may even use a casus belli applicable either to him or his ally. Otherwise, each party should apply formal or surprise penalty depending on his specific relationship (standard or dennounced) with the target.

On the other hand, it wold be nice if you could raise “template” emergencies for attack (at a heavy diplomatic cost with the target) or defense (when being the objective of a surprise war). You should provide the “prize” for the civs joining your emergency, that would be deducted from your resources.

 

[Disgustipated]

There's a mod "no joint war" that gets rid of that nonsense altogether.

I disabled this mod because it was too peaceful. I didn't have a single AI declare on me the entire game.

 

[pietro1990]

I disabled this mod because it was too peaceful. I didn't have a single AI declare on me the entire game.

Yes i noticed that . THe AI isn't smart enough to denounce you and then declare a formal war it doesn't do that.

However the problem with joint war is that the AI doesn't take relationships into account. it can be friendly and sitll accept a joint war decleration.

It isn't that hard for the developer's to change the mechancic to if both players denounced a player they can declare a joint war and it counts as a formal war

 

[UWHabs]

Yes i noticed that . THe AI isn't smart enough to denounce you and then declare a formal war it doesn't do that.

However the problem with joint war is that the AI doesn't take relationships into account. it can be friendly and sitll accept a joint war decleration.

It isn't that hard for the developer's to change the mechancic to if both players denounced a player they can declare a joint war and it counts as a formal war

The AI will definitely go to war sometimes without a joint war. I lost a game recently due to Harald denouncing me for settling near him, and then declaring war on me maybe 5 or 10 turns later. I might have been able to fight him off had Gitarja not decided to declare war on me about 3 or 4 turns after Harald did.

 

[pietro1990]

The AI will definitely go to war sometimes without a joint war. I lost a game recently due to Harald denouncing me for settling near him, and then declaring war on me maybe 5 or 10 turns later. I might have been able to fight him off had Gitarja not decided to declare war on me about 3 or 4 turns after Harald did.

Wich era?

In ancient and classical era t hey do it. But i never seen them declare on medieval or renaissance era

 

[Scaramanga]

Because it's not a total surprise when one other person knows about it. Appearing friendly is one thing, actually declaring friendship is another.

 

[pietro1990]

Because it's not a total surprise when one other person knows about it. Appearing friendly is one thing, actually declaring friendship is another.

it isn't called a suprise war because its a "suprise" because nobody knew about it. its a suprise because there wasn't a justified reason to go to war

Casus belli is a Latin expression meaning "an act or event that provokes or is used to justify war" (literally, "a case of war"

 

[pgm123]

Still annoying, though.

I can accept them DOWing me when it is clear that I am pissing them off with my actions. But for that they should actually denounce me or at least show up as unfriendly.

I can also accept them conspiring behind my back and doing a joint backstab. But then at least show this as a Surprise joint war, not a “Formal” war that came out of nothing else but a tea bag offering during a trade deal.

I assume they do it for the sweet, sweet bribe the other civ is giving.