Why is a joint war a formal war?

[Zaarin]

I agree. Joint wars should count as surprise wars and both parties should take relationships into account. The way it works now just makes the AI completely untrustworthy.

 

[Scaramanga]

it isn't called a suprise war because its a "suprise" because nobody knew about it. its a suprise because there wasn't a justified reason to go to war

Casus belli is a Latin expression meaning "an act or event that provokes or is used to justify war" (literally, "a case of war"

What is the justification of a formal war?

 

[NukeAJS]

For starters, joint war should only be available to allies (come the new expansion).

Also, whenever you declare a joint war, two things should should happen, one passive and one decision -- you should never get warmonger diplo penalties with the other person you went to war with (passive). Also, both the person that initiated the joint war and the person that followed should have to choose a causus belli. If you have none available, it's a surprise war and you get the normal diplo penalties with everyone else except your buddy.

Also, a lot of the other causes bellis should unlock MUCH sooner. Liberation war should be enabled from turn 0 and should give double surprise war diplo penalties if you capture and annex the aggressors cities or annex a captured city or CS.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Joint war is a formal war for pure gameplay reasons:

1. If that would count as surprize war, chances what the second civ has necessary denuncation would be low. Thus penalties would be high and there will be much less civs wanting to join.
2. The overall casus belli mechanics is built around "some efforts needed to lower warmonger penalties". Joint war fits this as it definitely requires efforts to bring another civ into the war.

In short, it's considered formal, because it needs reduced warmonger penalties of around the same level as regular formal war.

Also, from immersion perspective, you could see this as a difference between Military aggression and International peacekeeping operation

For starters, joint war should only be available to allies (come the new expansion).

Joint war comes into effect way earlier than alliances. There could be another type of casus belli related to alliances. I'm not sure if there's one currently.

 

[UWHabs]

They really need a way to invite (bribe) your allies into a war.

 

[pietro1990]

What is the justification of a formal war?

You denounced that world power and told the world you are enemy of this civilization because he broke a promise or something else.

For starters, joint war should only be available to allies (come the new expansion).

Also, whenever you declare a joint war, two things should should happen, one passive and one decision -- you should never get warmonger diplo penalties with the other person you went to war with (passive). Also, both the person that initiated the joint war and the person that followed should have to choose a causus belli. If you have none available, it's a surprise war and you get the normal diplo penalties with everyone else except your buddy.

Also, a lot of the other causes bellis should unlock MUCH sooner. Liberation war should be enabled from turn 0 and should give double surprise war diplo penalties if you capture and annex the aggressors cities or annex a captured city or CS.

Just make joint war only available if both targets have denounced the target so lets say if victoria and I only denounced montezuma we can only selecy montezuma as a joint target

 

[Scaramanga]

You denounced that world power and told the world you are enemy of this civilization because he broke a promise or something else.

That's all covered in the real Casus belli, including the new War of retribution. Formal war is just a baseline of warmongering where the reasons are still unclear (unless it involves interfering with a certain agenda). Denouncement not only warns the target but also all contacts that war is a possibility so if two civs agree on a surprise then they are spreading the warmongering around. Besides, if there are 3-4 civs on the known continent that's already over 1/2 of the international community that is voting you off the island.

 

[Victoria]

Joint wars are a way to encourage wars against stronger players and also a way to forge friendships. They are a good idea as an item in the game. I agree they could be expanded on and I guess emergencies are along these lines.

The issue with surprise is not limited to this. Rome wants to declare a formal war on me so denounces me and this allows me to formal war on him next turn. So the issue is not purely with joint wars.

Please do not downgrade a trade deal to”just a trade deal” ... it is as likely to also be an alliance forging move or to get friendly enough to have 30 turn peace.

 

[pgm123]

Also, both the person that initiated the joint war and the person that followed should have to choose a causus belli. If you have none available, it's a surprise war and you get the normal diplo penalties with everyone else except your buddy.

This is absolutely an excellent compromise.