Why is the AI beating me in techs??

[hbdragon88]

It's chieftain and a scenario, named AfterWar off of Civ3.com. Map size is standard, and I have a bad spot in the middle of the forests. But that doesn't matter.

During a period of anarchy and between the Medieval and Industrial Ages, I discovered that the AI was beating me tech wise. I tweaked the luxs/science rate and now am reseraching at a rate of 4 turns to a tech.

I thought I would by the end start to outstrip the AI tech wise.

In the middle I notice the science advisor telling me that we're still technologically behind!

I buy Combustion (whats that tech that gets you destroyer?) and Ghandi has Flight!

This is the file that has the scenario in it.
I would like help...

 

[Bamspeedy]

Do you have a save? That would be more helpful. I see some of the changes to the rules in that mod, but nothing that would really cause the AI to blaze through the tech tree real fast on Chieftain from what I could see.

 

[wilbill]

Not sure what version your scenario is, but at 1.29/PTW 1.14, the AI's trade techs with each other at a staggering pace. If you were only even with them and went through several turns of anarchy, you could easily have ended up several techs behind. You have to trade, buy, steal, or bully techs to catch up. At lower levels you can catch up. At higher levels you may not.

 

[DaveMcW]

The AI trades with themselves. So they can get new techs in less than 4 turns average by researching down different paths and trading.

The best way to counter this is trade also. Sell every new tech you get for gold-per-turn until they are so poor that they can't afford to research. Then you can pull ahead in science, selling them old techs to keep them poor.

 

[hbdragon88]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Do you have a save? That would be more helpful. I see some of the changes to the rules in that mod, but nothing that would really cause the AI to blaze through the tech tree real fast on Chieftain from what I could see.

I'll try to post one, but it's really hard when I have had a bad experience with the uploads file. Let's see whether I can compress it down to less than 100KB

The best way to counter this is trade also. Sell every new tech you get for gold-per-turn until they are so poor that they can't afford to research. Then you can pull ahead in science, selling them old techs to keep them poor.

I had an edge in Sanitation, but didn't trade it. Now they have it, and I can't trade it to them.

 

[Chieftess]

It's always a good idea to trade worthless techs, or trade luxs for techs. Sometimes, making them pay 40gpt for a lux they don't have can make all the difference. You could throw the entire planet into war while you rush ahead in tech.

 

[hbdragon88]

OK:

Here is a save of the game that the AI is beating me in techs, really badly, and cannot catch up...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hbdragon-SAV2.zip http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/hbdragon-SAV2.zip

 

[DaveMcW]

It's easy to see your problem from the save file: You played the entire game with 9 workers!

I have at least 2 workers per city as a non-industrious civ, and up to 100 when it's railroad-building time.

You did a great job roading everything despite your pitiful work force, and that kept you in the game. You can buy any techs you want with your 5000 gold treasury. Unfortunately your unproductive tiles couldn't build hospitals and universities in most cities, which cancels your chieftan research bonus.

Build 50 workers. Mine all grasslands, irrigate all plains, clear all forests, railroad everything. When every tile is improved to the max you'll be amazed how fast you pull ahead.

 

[Darkness]

daveMcW is right, you don't have enough workers! Mine and irrigate everything and you'll go ahead much faster...

 

[TrailblazingScot]

You cities population is also meagre considering the time period and indeed the quality of the land you have there!

 

[hbdragon88]

I've read about using that strategy before, but...

How do you sacrifice so many turns to build workers? On chieftain it's possible to build every wonder, and when I assign core cities to build wonders, I feel somewhat guility, not building cathedrals, colsums, and temples and libraries to do such a thing.

I swear that scenario is tinkered to make worker actions so much longer. Is that so? It took me a LONG time to clear all the pollution (see scenario). It was 12 turns each, and I had to group them into stacks of three if I expected it be done.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Worker actions in that scenario are the same as normal rules. But you were playing Japan and they are not industrious (do you usually play an industrious civ). Plus you had to clear pollution before you got to democracy (increased worker speed when in democracy) and before getting Replaceable parts (another increase in worker speed when you get this tech).

I usually set a city or two aside as strictly worker factories that can produce a worker every 2-3 turns or so (need some good food and a granary for this, often times these cities first start out as settler factories, but after the land grab phase is over these cities become worker factories. But you will also want to build a few workers during the land grab phase (especially on larger maps) to lay down roads and improve the tiles of a few nearby cities.

You might want to try having some of your cities have a build pattern like this and see if this does better for you:
unit/unit/worker/temple/worker/library/worker etc.
Building the units and infrastructure allows your cities to grow, but they put out a worker every now and then so that you have enough workers improving the terrain so that you don't have any of your citizens working on unimproved terrain.

If you have more workers mining and irrigating you will actually produce and grow faster. Bonus resources (cattle, wheat) you want to irrigate these (in most cases) for quick growth, mine grassland and irrigate plains. Of course if you are by hills/mountains, you'll want to irrigate some grassland (after you get out of despotism) so that you have enough food to work the hills/mountains. If you are in a heavy forest, cut those forests down. You might want to leave a couple forest tiles for micromanaging purposes, but generally working too many forests stunts your growth.

When you get to higher levels, you won't be able to get every wonder. So you will have to aim for just the wonder (s) you REALLY want. Some wonders aren't really worth it unless you are going for a culture victory. Some wonders you have to ask yourself "should I spend 400 shields on that wonder, or should I spend 400 shields on military units (13+ swordsmen) or other infrastructure".

 

[planetfall]

hbdragon,

A good rule of thumb for first 3 difficulty levels is have at least 1 worker/city and 2-6 for making connecting roads.

Just for fun, run a test:

New game, cheiftain, 2 civs
Save 4000bc game.
play your normal way from 4000bc to 10ad, stop and write down key data:
1. # cities
2. # of techs
3. GNP {F11 screen}
4. land area {F11}
5. net income per turn at 0% sci/lux

Then reload from your 4000bc game and build 5 workers + 1/city. Stop at 10ad and compare the
above datapoints.

It might be fun to post the results.

If you are unsure what to do withi so many workers, check out cracker's ideas.

== PF

 

[amirsan]

try building more libraries and Banks to raise income and science research. Or you can buy and sell techs while your % is 0.

 

[sabo]

There is a steadfast rule on how to increase science

Libraries + Universities - 50% increase in science

Marketplaces and Banks - Increases commerce which also increases science

Workers IMPROVE EVERYTHING
roads add commerce
mines add shield
irrag add food

then be patient and trade techs as much as you can, being on a chieftan level it will probably not take you very long to catch up.

 

[anarres]

Originally posted by sabo10
Marketplaces and Banks - Increases commerce which also increases science

Is this true? I thought that these improvements only increase the gold to the treasury.

 

[PersianImmortal]

the gold u get goes to science..

At Chieftan u can whoop AI's ass researching... u complete wonders when they still don't even have the tech required for it.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by anarres
Is this true? I thought that these improvements only increase the gold to the treasury.

People post lots of weird concepts , I suppose that since you have better cash flow you could up your science rate and therefore your science. But thinking that the increase in commerce by building marketplaces and banks directly increases your science is misguided.

 

[Lynx]

You really need mass production, you simply cant win without an immense industrial capability.