I spent ages wondering why Agoge and Oligarchy didn't apply to Anti-Cav. It was like that for (I guess??) over a year. And then they just changed it in R&F. Was that a belated reaction to player comments? ... or did it literally take that long for Firaxis to get around to changing it...?
I don't know but what I do know is that they have a data orientedcrowd at their disposal to do all the hard analysis work for them , the least they could do is take the conclusions into accounts when they release patches. It's almost zero cost for them (a monkey reviewing the forum could make a weekly synthesis for the devs )
One of the consequences of their design decisions that:
UIs will take a full builder charge
UBs will cost a normal building amount
but UDs will be half price
is that a UD will always start out so much stronger than a UI or UB that the UI or UB would need significantly greater bonuses to compensate, and generally that hasn't been the case.
The more useful the underlying district, the more valuable it is to have a UD, and even for a relatively unimportant district, having a UD will typically be stronger than having a UI or UB.
It is very strange that some UUs cannot be upgraded into. With unique Districts being half the price, they would be useful even if they had none bonuses over the conventional ones. If UUs that don't replace any unit could be upgraded into, they would be similarly useful even if they had no bonuses compared to units of other classes from the same era.
pikes upgrade into pike and shot for pretty cheap an era later if memory serves. i don't see why they can't just do the same here. you go from swords to those units for really cheap. add that on to what they just did, and those units would be a lot more worthwhile to research. it would make those factions a lot stronger in the mid game.
Still terrible. It's hung out to dry on part of the tech tree that is absolutely not a priority. Then it requires a hard build from there. Hammer reduction is good. 10%~ cheaper than similar units but still situational movement and combat bonus. Georgia is a turtle civ so their strength is in peaceful cultural/religious play.
Some ideas to fix - upgrade the terrible spearman into Khevsur for cheap. Or put the unlock on the Civics tree which would actually synergize decently
I wonder if Saint Meier heard our prayers on this one, lads?
In terms of combat power, they are now pretty on the money (especially the samurai- wow!) and the production cost is in a good spot for their power. I'm still crying tears that they didn't touch the pikeman at all
So if you have to build new units, which many players do and will, they won't be literally worse than building swordsmen. It stings that they still can't be upgraded into and that Military tactics is a leaf tech, but it's no longer a total noob trap. On hills, Khevsurs will be serious muscle!
Who was it that did the math to show why these three unique units and pikemen were so terrible? Can we see the numbers run again? I wonder how they would compare now.
Who was it that did the math to show why these three unique units and pikemen were so terrible? Can we see the numbers run again? I wonder how they would compare now.
No math here but the hard build makes them almost pointless. They upgrade to muskets. So by the time you detour 10 turns just to research the tech you could have been 1/3 of the way to muskets. Ok, so say you detoured and got the tech Now hard build 6 of them. Great, you just unlocked muskets.
I mean I suppose you can delay gunpowder but in my mind it doesn't make sense
I don’t think the hard building by itself is a deal breaker provided the units aren’t too expensive. The real issue is around Military Tactics being a leaf tech, and Pikes being too expensive.
If you fixes those issues, you’d have Spears to upgrade into Pikes which could then reinforce your hard built Medieval Melee.
Compare the Redcoat or Frances Guarde Imperial. Both have to be hard built (although Reds can spawn with Pax B), but you get them with the same tech that lets you upgrade Horsies to Cav. So, you can combine those units with a Cav rush.
I like how everybody in these threads about MT UUs forgets about buying them with faith. Especially religious civs like Georgia and Japan can do this quite easily.
I don't think people forget about buying them with faith. It's just it's a bit limiting if that's the only strategy available. I normally use Gold to buy them. In R&F, I don't think there's a way to get any discount on the gold cost though...
While hard building does really dent their usefulness as an upgrade, at some point you have to build your army in the first place.
We only like upgrading because it's artificially cheap (probably for AI benefit) and has the godlike 50% card (seriously this is card is unbelievable.)
But in a pitched battle, where units die and we have to replace them, we care about performance in combat. The fact that some players can never lose a unit to the AI, etc, is unrelated to unit balance. We have the larger playerbase, multiplayer, late starts, and FUN to think about too! I agree that there are many other problems at play here, believe me- but we at least need some semblance of unit balance or it's all for naught.
Who was it that did the math to show why these three unique units and pikemen were so terrible? Can we see the numbers run again? I wonder how they would compare now.
I like how everybody in these threads about MT UUs forgets about buying them with faith. Especially religious civs like Georgia and Japan can do this quite easily.
No math here but the hard build makes them almost pointless. They upgrade to muskets. So by the time you detour 10 turns just to research the tech you could have been 1/3 of the way to muskets. Ok, so say you detoured and got the tech Now hard build 6 of them. Great, you just unlocked muskets.
I mean I suppose you can delay gunpowder but in my mind it doesn't make sense
I often don't get Niter in my games, like in 8 out of my last 10 games I haven't gotten it. So hard building a good amount of Khevsur could hold me over until I get out Field Cannons.
I like how everybody in these threads about MT UUs forgets about buying them with faith. Especially religious civs like Georgia and Japan can do this quite easily.
This option is still incredibly expensive when you compare them to knights. Knights cost 42.9 production (65 for heavy chariot less 33% with card) plus 115 gold to upgrade (with card). Purchasing a Khevsur would cost 360 faith (320 with the new patch) plus the science from military tactics (which I would ignore otherwise) plus the production and opportunity cost of going grand master's chapel. Using the standard 1prod = 2faith = 4gold formula your knight "cost" 143.3 faith vrs the 320 faith for the Khevsur. Then take into account that knights are an all around stronger unit (outside of maybe oligarchy stacking or hill heavy areas).
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