Why Korea as a Civ?

[Exsanguination]

I was just wondering why Firaxis would decide to include Korea as a civ. I've taken Ancient, European, World, Canadian, and currently American history, and have never heard the country/civilization of Korea come up until the 1950s Korean War.

I'm not sayig Korea has no right to be a civ (they did, after all, invent the printing press), but I don't see them "important" enough, per se, to be included in a video game. I doubt the Koreans have had a greater influence on history than the Jews, Mayans, Incans, or even Macedonians. If someone could just give me a reason why Korea is that important, please do so.

Rome gave us the largest empire the world had ever seen, Greece gave us modern thought, Europe was the cradle of Civilization, China is one of the longest lasting, if not longest-lasting, civilization(s) to survive to today.

PS - why is there BOTH an Arab and an Ottoman civ? They are essentially (key word) the same people. Maybe not ethnically/racially/peoplely, but historically. The Ottoman Turks are the Arabs historically. And how could Firaxis include the Arabs without the Jews? I say replace the Ottomans with the Jews.

WAIVER: I have nothing against Korea, and seek not to offend or insult any Koreans, or anyone for that matter. I'm just curious - call it ignorance to the facts (if they are there) - why a little-known civ (I didn't even know Korea WAS a civ, I thought they were just a 20th cent. de-annexation of Japan or China or Russia or some country in the area; like the African countries with Britain/France/etc) has become a civ in a video game with the Romans, Greeks, and Chinese. Again, I seek NOT TO OFFEND ANYONE.

 

[HotDog Fish]

actually the Koreans as an independant culture is VERY old, only a bit younger than the chinese by a little, almost all scientific achievements made by the Chinese and Japanese actually extended from Korea who invented the printing press (and used them alot) centuries before Guttenberg. The Korean culture is actually pretty unique amongst Asian cultures aswell.The Japanese Royal family is actually ethically Korean as well. Well the Koreans after te 1650's kinda went into decline and become a proxy of Japan. But anyways even thought they achieved alot I think the Incas or a bunch of Civs should haven gotten higher billing. Also South Korea is also the country that plays the most pc games, they even teach game design in high school and outbought copies of Starcraft compared to Americans so Firaxis wants to pander abit.

Oh the Otomans and Arabs are completley diffrent like you mention, ethinically, racially and even belief wise they are very diffrent people with diffrent outlooks on things, the only things I cancee simliar between the two is a common Religion and that's it

 

[joespaniel]

There may be a commercial reason as well.

Many South Koreans own computers. :enlighten

I'm just speculating ofcourse.

The more civs, the better. Bring 'em on!

 

[Venger]

Joespaniel has hit it on the head - Koreans buy software, this is a clear pander to that market...

Venger

 

[dannyevilcat]

Originally posted by joespaniel
The more civs, the better. Bring 'em on!

I agree completely. Even if the people at Firaxis decide that there should be an Inuit, Jamaican or even Welsh civ, I say the more the better! (although there are a few others they might want to get around to first...)

EDIT: Sheesh, my grammer was baaaad!)

 

[Venger]

I absolutely agree with this sentiment - variety is the spice of life! I have no problems with Korea being a Civ. Since we still have some limits, it does bear discussing why we have some and not some others, but still, I'd rather have 100 Civs than 10.

Venger

 

[Sullla]

Originally posted by Exsanguination
PS - why is there BOTH an Arab and an Ottoman civ? They are essentially (key word) the same people. Maybe not ethnically/racially/peoplely, but historically. The Ottoman Turks are the Arabs historically. And how could Firaxis include the Arabs without the Jews? I say replace the Ottomans with the Jews.

Ummm... no, they're not. Not even close. The Ottomans were ethnic Turks, not even close to the Arabs. And although us Westerners may have trouble telling apart Turks from Arabs, they are far from being the same group of people. In fact, by the end of the 19th century many of the ethnic Arabs that made up large parts of the Ottoman Empire were staging all sorts of nationalistic movements and protests to try and get their own countries. The Ottomans were viewed as foreign conquerers to most Arabs, "barbarians" in the eyes of many such as the Wahhabi fundamentalists that eventually formed what is now Saudi Arabia. The Turks didn't migrate out of Central Asia until the 11th century AD after all, while the Arabs had been building great cities and inventing algebra long before that. But I guess I'm getting off track, and I'm no expert in that area of the world at all. I do know enough to state confidently that the Arabs and Turks were/are not even remotely close to being the same people.

As for the Koreans, I know virtually nothing of Asian history so don't feel inclined to comment. I'm pretty confident that the Koreans are quite different from both Chinese and Japanese though, although I don't know enough to say how. Glad to see that Exsanguination was friendly in the initial post though; no need to turn this into a flame war when it can be a friendly conversation.

 

[Civddict]

There is only one Slavic civ - Russia.

 

[Evie]

Re : Korea : Korea is a civilization that, as others have stated, has been standing in the same general area for as long as many of the other great civs. While they may not have done AS MUCH as either of their neighbor in terms of overall world influence (they still had their inventions et al), the fact that they retained a separate cultural identity despite being trapped as the meeting point (and often battle ground) of the two great powers of eastern asia speaks well for them.

Let's look at your list of better choices.

Hebrews, (IMHO the only one that can stand up to the Koreans)
Lasted : Three milleniums or so.
Influence on Modern World : THe constant infighting over there at present put aside, monotheism and two and a half of the three great monotheistic religion.
Significant events of HISTORY (History as in "What we know from non-biblical sources") with them involved :
-Them getting conquered by (in no particular orders) : Babylon, Persia, Greece (Macedonia), Rome) and being subject state.
-The revolts of the first and second century that eventually got them kicked out of Jerusalem (on penalty of death) by the Romans.
-And of course, the holocaust.
Significan accomplishements they left us : (aside from scientifical discoveries from Jews researchers working for other nations - that does not apply - a religion is not a civilization). Most of the great works of Herod, the Torah, and partly the Christian bible. Of those, the Christian bible was as much if not more the works of the greeks and romans, so off, Herod was ALSO pretty much seen even in his time as a Roman/Greek by his subject (I think that the fact that he built a seaport named Cesaria and put in the middle of it a temple to Augustus with a statue of Zeus in it was a slight hint), and his works were done in a time where Israel was a roman protectorate, so...

That leaves the Torah, and what is to my mind, the great accomplishement of the Hebrew and their descendant - managing to retain a certain cultural unity over the years even though they were scattered to the four winds, to the point that they finally managed to get a country of theirs now.

Ultimately, it all hinge on two factors.

1)Korea spent much more of its history as an independant state (at worse sometime paying tribute to China - and much larger states have paid tributes in their own times, including even AFAIK Rome (and I'm not talking about the late 5th century here)) and much less as a subject state/province.
2)Korea is a much more interesting potential market for Firaxis.

Mayans
Lasted for : a millenium or less.
Influence on modern world : Roughly NIL other than a few ruins.
Significant events of history that has them as a focus : Them building cities. Their cities vanishing out of history and being swallowed back by the jungle.
Accomplishemes left behind : Cool, nice looking ruins here and there in the jungle. They also were fairly good in astronomy.

Incans
Lasted for : A few centuries.
Influence on modern world : Myth of El Dorado. Whoooo.
Significant events of history they were involved in : Building an empire in Peru of respectable size. Getting wiped out by the Conquistadors.
Accomplishements : Respectable astronomical knowledge. Machu Pichu.

or even Macedonians
Remind me again who's the leader of the GREEK civilization in Civ III? That the Macedonians are worthy of inclusion is unchallengeable - and they already are, in fact, included - as part of the whole "Greek" ensemble.

 

[Shabbaman]

You guys forget one thing: the civs are categorized in a topographical manner. So maybe Firaxis thought it was time for another asian civ.

Just maybe.

I put my money on the marketing thing. Although with that argument they could have added another American civ. D'oh.

 

[robehans]

IMHO, there should be no "new" civs in Civ 3.
America is included just to please the american players...
You cant compare America with the old civilizations like Babylon or Persia, they were about the oldest civs to really have a militaristic influence on the world, the only older mid-eastern civilisations were The Ubaid and Halaf and THEY were the ones that founded most of the cities that Babylon and Persia have in this game.
We all know the names Byblos, Ur Uruk and Nippur (Babylon), and Susa, Hamah (Hamadan) and Tarsus (Persia).
After the fall of the Ubaid (which were the ones that lasted of the 2 civilizations there was the empire of Ur, that we can say to have lengthened the city-list of especially the Babylonians, by founding atleast the towns of Sippar, Nineveh, Lagash, Sippar and Kish.
I will not now go trought the histories of mid-East, but i will name these civilizations: Assyrians, the Hittites, Kassites, Elamites and Mitannians. But the hammurabi-ruled Babylonian empire reached its peak in between 1792 BC and 1750 BC.
You could say that the persians is a young civilization, for they were annexed in 559 BC.

IMO the civilizations of Civ 3 would be the following (in the order they pop into my head):
Greece (we all know why)
Assyria (they ruled a chunk of land copareable with Europe)
Egypt (They did not rule over 80% of the Nile )
Rome (The one that doesnt know should be slapped)
Makedonia (1 name: Alexander the great)
Babylon (a great civilization who even built 1 of the 7 WoW's)
China (An old civ with an great culture)
Germany (They were a scattered 'folk')
Phoenicia (Ruled the Med.terr.sea before Greece)
Celts (One of the most important european civilisations)
Saxons (A bunch of conquerors)
Vikings (Militaristic, yet commercial and expansionistic)
Ottomans (We all know they ruled all of turkey)
Japan (One word: Samurai)
Russians (An evolution of Novgorod with wast amounts of land)
Aztecs (The most militaristic civilization in america)
Mayans (Were the most intellectual american civ)
Zulus (A late, but still strong militaristic civ)
Sioux (A strong civ that we all know from Civ 2)
Iroquois (Its in now and i dont dislike it, let it be)
Carthagians(Posed a threat at the Roman empire)
India (A good bunch of early matematichans)
Thats about it...

 

[Ribannah]

What we also tend to forget is that a second XP has already been promised by Firaxis. Gathering that they wouldn't want the second XP to be described as one of 'second-rate civs', we cannot draw the conclusion that the 8 civs of Play the World are to be considered somehow obviously more important than others.

Let's say the second XP will contain Ethiopia, the Dutch, the Maya, Polynesia, the Hebrews, the Inca (will probably be chosen over Tiahuanaco, I fear), Mali and the Afghans, that would certainly make an interesting collection, right?

 

[Kilroy]

Nevermind the Incans, what about the Brazilians and the Argentinians? If we want any of these civs, we're going to have to put them there ourselves, because Firaxis sure isn't. I can't possibly understand why - the Incans and especially the Mayans deserve a spot more than the Aztecs.

But hey, at least they changed their minds regarding Gaul.

 

[akleindopff]

I have to say I find it bizarre that the Koreans were included. Perhaps this is a marketing ploy to entice the Asian market somehow. I would have personally have chosen to include the Maya, Slavs and Jews in preference to the Koreans.
The Mayas being by far the most obvious choice having calculated the length of solar year accurately to within 12 seconds of the modern year. The Maya are surely more deserving of inclusion in this game as a truly scientific and religious race.
The Slavs were another choice overlooked. Considering that their part in history has been anything but outstanding ( having been occupied by the Turks or persecuted by the Germans ) it has to be said that these people have come to dominate eastern europe and have culture stretching back hundreds ( if not thousands ) of years and therefore deserving of inclusion in this game. And who wouldn't wish to play Vlad Tepes ( or as he was otherwise known as "Vlad the Impaler" or "Dracula" ) as their head-of-state.
The Jews ( perhaps a controversial choice considering the recent spate of events in the Middle East ) should have been included in the expansion pack. With a history spanning back to the dawn of time I believe they have earned some merit as an enduring civilization.

P.S. In relation to the Ottoman Turks being an Arab race. The Ottomans actually originally came from Central Asia and not from the Arabian peninsula, so therefore cannot be considered Arabs in the strictest sense even though their cultures have merged in recent centuries. The Turks will themselves will clearly state that they are not Arabs and have been making overtures recently to say that they are European.

 

[Hamlet]

One of the most obvious reasons to me for the inclusion of The Koreans is the need for cultural balance - you would have had 5 European civs and 2 Eastern ones without them, which seems fairly legitimate to me.

That's before you go onto questions of historical importance etc.

 

[Qitai]

Hey! Asia is rich in history too! Just that the west do not know much about them! And Korea is among one of the longest lasting civilization in the world. Most of the civ already/going to be in the game do not even have such a long history.

Anyway, two comments. I may be wrong, but this is what I heard.

1) Mogolian empire is larger then Rome empire at it's peak.

2) The people of Japan has their origin from Korea and China.

 

[JtheJackal]

Korea has a long, rich history and is a perfectly good civ

 

[Reboot]

Originally posted by JtheJackal
Korea has a long, rich history and is a perfectly good civ

I agree. Besides, if Japan can get into CivIII, then Korea should too. the Koreans seem to want to be called "Coreans" because "Korea" was a term given by the Japanese during their occupation... so maybe Firaxis should consider naming the civ Corea instead?

[edit: spelling mistake]

 

[NiteCreature]

Wow...the Koreans are in, but i was very surprised to see the Inca's take the fall for it I love the inca's....

Anyway, now they are in i hope they will have the new improvement 'football field' which can produce a GL called 'Hiddink'

Cheers

Korea Fighting!!!

 

[Ralendil]

IMO the civilizations of Civ 3 would be the following (in the order they pop into my head):

Yes in your head...
And frenchs ?????
Napoleon remember you something?