Why Korea as a Civ?

[ChaosArbiter]

Constantinople, Istanbul as today, was besieged by Persia, Muslim Arabs(Emevi), Abbasids, Russia, Hungary, Venice, and Genoa but only the Ottomans succeeded.

You forgot the 4th Crusade, which probably helped the Ottomans take Constantinople. Although they were probably more helped by the fact that the Byzantines had been in a pretty fair decline for several hundred years.

Ottomans also brought the end of the Eastern Roman Empire,

You're repeating yourself - the Byzantine Empire was the Eastern Roman Empire. Constantinople was its capital.

and if they did not get stopped at Vienna by the help of the Polish, they would have captured Rome as well, ending the Roman Empire altogether. However, we shouldn't talk about if's, as there are a lot.

Whether we should or shouldn't ... well, I'll give you benefit of the doubt - at the very least, politics of the day (both times, probably) would almost certainly have given them some European allies who hoped to use them against their enemies.

You might not know a lot about the Ottoman Empire, but know this: They were feared.

But not, as a rule, by people who weren't neighbored by them. And their track record in Romania wasn't terribly impressive all the time either. I'm not against the Ottomans, I just think that their power needs to be kept in perspective - none of the major European powers really had much to do with them after the Crusade of Nicopolis (1396).

For my perspective, the world's 3rd greatest empire was the Ottoman, while Roman being first, and Hunnic being second.

Hunnic Empire? The one that lasted a century and started falling apart less than 20 years after Atilla's death? Frankly, I'm curious as to why you consider the Hunnic Empire greater than the English or Mongol empires.

Greece declared independence in 1821, and they call themselves "sons of Byzantines" like I call myself "son of Ottomans" as I'm Turkish. I know this, because I have Greek friends.

And there are a lot of people (primarily Roman historians who utterly despise the term "Byzantine" when referring to the Eastern Romans) who consider the Greeks who call themselves that pretentious; the Byzantines never referred to *themselves* as Byzantines or Greeks - they were the Roman Empire. "Greek Empire" and "Byzantine" were *western* labels for them.

And doesn't "Ottoman" already mean "son(s) of Osman?"

I know, but still, England France Portugal Spain etc always make something big in my mind, while when I hear or read the word "Netherlands" 2 things come to my mind, red light district and Ajax FC, not their historical events.

If we have a Dutch among ourselves, please come forward and convince me that your country was(or is) an important country to be concluded in civ3.

I'm not Dutch, but I'd like to toss some stuff in. After the 15th century or so, the Dutch were probably the most important sea traders in northern Europe. Earlier (from the 10th Century or so), the area was the largest center of trade in northern Europe. They established colonies in both the Americas (New Amsterdam is the city that became New York, for example) and east Asia (the Dutch East Indies Company) - they were, for a long time, the only European contacts Japan had.

They were never a terribly *powerful* nation in and of themselves - they were rather like a medieval Carthage, thriving because of excellent location for trading.

 

[MajKira]

becuz simply Korea IS a strong Civv, holding up own national identity in spite of annihilating attempts especially from Japan and China never wanted to destroy us would have caused severe resistance never to manage upon

same goes for Mongols who tried via Korea a landing on Japan

the only painig thing is the annihilation of korean kingdoms Goguryo and Balhae in Manchuria by mongol/turkish tribes khizan or Khan mongols later or Mandschus

 

[Ataxerxes]

becuz simply Korea IS a strong Civv, holding up own national identity in spite of annihilating attempts especially from Japan and China never wanted to destroy us would have caused severe resistance never to manage upon

same goes for Mongols who tried via Korea a landing on Japan

the only painig thing is the annihilation of korean kingdoms Goguryo and Balhae in Manchuria by mongol/turkish tribes khizan or Khan mongols later or Mandschus

Welcome to the Lazarus thread.

I think Korea is one of the weaker real-life Civs in the game but a number of others could be compared to it. Aztec, Inca, Zulu.

Korea has done well holding onto it's national heritage despite attempts to destroy it similar to, say, Poland.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

I remember reading somehwere that England at its zenith ahd the largest empire in history (America, India, China) with the Huns second.

The Dutch were great explorers and had a shot at great empire. edit: oops, I was thinking about Portugal-never mind.

 

[Bucephalus]

I remember reading somehwere that England at its zenith ahd the largest empire in history (America, India, China) with the Huns second.

The Dutch were great explorers and had a shot at great empire.

Some facts:

At its height, the British Empire covered more than 36 million square kilometers - nearly a quarter of the world's land area - making it the largest empire in history.

The Mongols had the largest contiguous empire in history.

And in a list of the largest empires, the Ottoman empire comes in at a rather insignificant sixteenth.

 

[invector]

Some facts:

At its height, the British Empire covered more than 36 million square kilometers - nearly a quarter of the world's land area - making it the largest empire in history.

The Mongols had the largest contiguous empire in history.

And in a list of the largest empires, the Ottoman empire comes in at a rather insignificant sixteenth.

I never said "largest" though. British "so-called-empire" had colonies all over the world, having the whole of unusable "new england" or a useless desert in middle east or australia is no use to an empire. Japan may have little landmass but its one of the most powerful nations of the world, even though they don't have an army at this moment. Not a single troop.

What parted the Ottoman empire from others was their control over the captured land, they didn't pillage and burn like Huns, or colonized and sucked their blood like Britons, they actually were very nice to the people lived there, showed privacy to them, respected their livings, and started making things of the captured land, they even recruited people from that land as Jenissaries, and many people joined the ranks of "weirdheads" willingly, who rushed to the battle first without weapon or armor. They killed with their bare hands.

After a conquest, Ottomans always checked the battlefield one more time, and they saw soldiers who were unharmed but dead anyway, they died of the fear.

Ottomans used music in battles, not the bs USA uses in Iraq and etc, it was called "Mehter" and it was near to holy for Ottomans, we Turks still listen to it from time to time. These songs were played by the army's band, and the enemy always get afraid to death when they hear the song.

How many armies were blessed by messiahs? Hz. Muhammed said "How nice is that commander that conqueres that city, how nice is that army that conqueres that city" when he was talking about Istanbul.

Also the biggest, largest, oldest, and most powerful cannon that ever used on the world was "Şahi" which was used first in 1453, in the taking of Istanbul. The weapon's barrel was 8 meters long and its cannons were around 500 kilograms in weight, and they were loaded and used by men.

Do I still need to say more? I hope I said enough to make you understand how powerful and great the Ottoman Empire was.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

What parted the Ottoman empire from others was their control over the captured land, they didn't pillage and burn like Huns, or colonized and sucked their blood like Britons, they actually were very nice to the people lived there, showed privacy to them, respected their livings, and started making things of the captured land,

When I have fewer things I need to get done, I'll fact-check this. For now, I don't have any disagreement, I'm merely reserving judgement.

they even recruited people from that land as Jenissaries, and many people joined the ranks of "weirdheads" willingly, who rushed to the battle first without weapon or armor. They killed with their bare hands.

People tried to get their kids into the Jannissaries because regardless of how hard a time the family was having, the (very) high rank of the Jannissaries would mean the child wouldn't suffer.

After a conquest, Ottomans always checked the battlefield one more time, and they saw soldiers who were unharmed but dead anyway, they died of the fear.

I call BS, plain and simple.

Ottomans used music in battles, not the bs USA uses in Iraq and etc, it was called "Mehter" and it was near to holy for Ottomans, we Turks still listen to it from time to time. These songs were played by the army's band, and the enemy always get afraid to death when they hear the song.

Welcome to Scotland. Hope you like bagpipes.

Also the biggest, largest, oldest, and most powerful cannon that ever used on the world was "Şahi" which was used first in 1453, in the taking of Istanbul. The weapon's barrel was 8 meters long and its cannons were around 500 kilograms in weight, and they were loaded and used by men.

What a hideously impractical weapon. You don't mention that the cannonballs (or does it actually shoot other cannons?) were very rare, and it took 3 hours to reload. Just as bad as the Paris Gun. And why would the Ottomans have had to attack their own city? That makes no sense ... now, I can see them attacking Constantinople with something like that (I even remember reading about it) but Istanbul? Wouldn't that contradict your earlier statement about them treating their subjects well?

Do I still need to say more? I hope I said enough to make you understand how powerful and great the Ottoman Empire was.

Not really. Essentially, all you've said was:
* The Ottomans were wonderful people whose subjects were willing to die for no good reason.
* The Ottomans were possessing a mass version the Phantasmal Killer spell.
* Said Mass Phantasmal Killer spell was transmitted via music.
* The Ottomans were either superstitious (if you don't particularly care for religion) or were pretty regular guys from a thousand years earlier (if you do).
* They used highly impractical weaponry for the sake of using it.

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

I got ignored before, thought I would try one more time, I find this topic facinating.

Still wondering about a definition for a 'civilization?' I recognize a 'Western Civilization' and a 'Roman Civilization,' other examples? Can anyone name an Eastern/Asian Civilization, a Middle-Eastern Civilization. I'm not just looking for a 'flash in the pan' empire but something that had vague beginnings, growth over generations and a slow fall, something that encompasses nations and states.

Today I recognize a Western Civilization with roots in Egypt and Greece. I've had some exposure to Asian culture and it's pretty obvious there are deep roots there but I don't know what to call it other than Eastern Civilization. I really think the current worldwide terrorist threat is from a Middle-Eastern culture trying to maintain its cultural identity, is there a Civilization there?

So what entities in history can really claim Civilization status, that is if we can agree on a definition? Nations have there own cultures and yet are influenced by the greater civilization they are part of. Some level of trade, don't you think would necessarily include individual nations into a civilization?

 

[Bucephalus]

Do I still need to say more? I hope I said enough to make you understand how powerful and great the Ottoman Empire was.

No.

I offered you objective facts, you replied with a subjective opinion of 'greatness', based on what appears to be blind patriotism.

 

[Raliuven]

After a conquest, Ottomans always checked the battlefield one more time, and they saw soldiers who were unharmed but dead anyway, they died of the fear.

Only one question on this - what tech do I need to research to unlock this Civ trait?

Is that a sub-tech of Musical Theory or Education (assuming I will need to build a school of witchcraft and wizardry to research Phantasmal Killer)?

 

[paramatt]

Meh, I guess they figured since they had China, Mongolia, and Japan, why not add Korea?

 

[invector]

Learn your history guys, no wonder you puny the Ottoman Empire. Don't worry if you don't know these things I'm telling you, because neither Europe nor America focuses on Ottoman Empire, laughably American education system starts the history from 1700 AD.

Think why didn't Russia invade the Ottoman Empire when we were very weak, after 1900. Their biggest wish as a country was to capture Istanbul, and reach the "warm seas". There is only one reason behind it, they were afraid.

"Şahi" cannons were used in sieges, the Ottoman Empire didn't need mobility, they took their time. Cannonballs were not your usual cannonball, they weren't round, they were just dig up from the iron mines and polished a bit to make it round-like.

You're welcome to not to believe a thing I say, after all, ignorance is bliss. However, if you trust a fellow civ3 player, trust me when I say Ottoman Empire was one of the greatest empires ever.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I don't deny that the Ottoman Empire was a great empire, but I think you exaggerate certain points.

Yes, Russia was afraid to attack the Ottomans after 1900. They didn't want to get mixed up with the other European nations, especially German at that time. The only reason Russia failed in earlier attacks is that France and Britain intervened on behalf of the Ottomans to preserve the status quo (Crimean War).

All great empires rise and fall. The Ottomans were great in their time and at least twice launched credible invasions deep into Europe. However, by 1900 they were in decline. Before WWI European nations wanted to preserve the status quo with the Ottomans so no European power could become too powerful.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Ottoman Empire was one of the greatest empires ever.

Right up there with the Aztecs.

 

[aukrest]

I'm Turkish. I know this, because I have Greek friends.

I always thought Greeks hated Turks

 

[Sparthage]

laughably American education system starts the history from 1700 AD.

In American History we start with the Native Americans (No real dates, just culture). In World History we start around 100,000 BC with the migrations out of Africa into the Middle East.

 

[Caseyboy97]

The koreans made a major impact on society

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Nero, I'm not sure how I'd define a civilization. In the game a lot of what we lable civs are perhaps better described as nations. The phrase "a civilization" as we are using it is probably better expressed as "a culture". I would tend to define civilization as the collective of all human society that has a recognizable civil structure (not redundant at all ). The best antonym I could think of is barbarism but it's way too easy to lable an indiginous people you want to enslave who's language and culture you haven't bothered to understand as barbaric to justify your conquest.

The game designers generally picked historic nations that established empires to fit the object of the game that being world domination. HAving a variety of cultures represented with intersting historic UU's adds color and fun in my opinion plain and simple.

 

[invector]

I always thought Greeks hated Turks

I have Greek friends but I love the land which Greece is on, but I hate the country, Greece. They backstabbed us after living in harmony with them for several hundred years, and Greek people did only what their country has asked them to do. I have been to Greece and I love Patras btw.

In American History we start with the Native Americans (No real dates, just culture). In World History we start around 100,000 BC with the migrations out of Africa into the Middle East.

I have been in USA for a whole year and went to high school there(senior) and I took(compulsary) History, and we started with Cavalries VS Indians and KKK and stuff like that. After that, WWI and WWII, nothing else about Europe or Asia.

 

[Sparthage]

I have been in USA for a whole year and went to high school there(senior) and I took(compulsary) History, and we started with Cavalries VS Indians and KKK and stuff like that. After that, WWI and WWII, nothing else about Europe or Asia.

That's probably something like American History Part 2. Cavalry vs. Indians doesn't happen until around the 1850s.