Why Korea as a Civ?

[sebanaj]

1300 bC obviously

 

[Thunderfall]

I'm Not buying it.

I say the Jews have endured much more over time and it's a wonder that they have managed to retain their cultre distinctevness with all the many civilizations they have impacted.

What?! You are not buying it because the Hebrews are not in the expansion? I hope not. Remember that Canadians, Dutch, Aussies, Belgians, Portuguese, and many others are also not in the expansion. There are only 8 new Civs: 5 directly from Civ2 -- this left only 3 spots for truly new Civs. There is no way Firaxis can please everyone.

 

[amadeus]

Considering both cultural and military influences from China and Japan, Korea has kept a strong hold on it's cultural roots.

 

[IceBlaZe]

I didn't know Jews are a civ anyway, It's a religion

Therfor the Civ itself should be the Hebrews.
Judaism and Jews stem from Hebrews, the Religion of Judaism came from the Religion of the Hebrews but it changed during the exilation.

As for influences, I found an interesting article about the Hebrews from Washington state university.

In the prolugue, it says this:

The ancient Middle East and Mesopotamia was a dynamically multicultural society composed of small, often insignificant kingdoms frequently torn between the forces of mighty empires, from Babylon to Egypt to Greece to Rome. But one of these small kingdoms, for the most part utterly insignificant in the drama of early civilization, became through its religion, philosophy, and law one of the most important cultures in Middle Eastern and Western history. Beginning inauspiciously as a closely-knit, war-like group of wandering tribes, this culture enjoyed for a blink of a historical eye a mighty empire, but it soon lapsed into a small and besieged state. Curiously, it was in defeat, dominated over by foreigners whose fathers came from across the Mediteranean sea, that the Hebrews would emerge as one of the most significant progenitors of the culture of the West and Middle East, giving us monotheism, law, and a new history for the west. The journey is an epic one, from dim and unpromising beginnings to empire to the loss of home and dispersion throughout the world, from Hebrew to Israelite to Jew, carrying with them always the promise that the one god would protect and preserve them over all others.

Which has some good points.

If you count Israelis today as continuation of the Hebrew culture (which is true, in a way) - And you count Jewish influences as Hebrew influences because Jews stem from Hebrews (which is also true in a way), you have the following benchmarks:

- Reincarnation of a state after thousands of years in occupation and exile
- The most dominant power in the modern middle east
- Survival of a complete attempt of ethnic clensing
- Invention of the three most powerful weapons in the modern world (Nuclear bomb, Neturon bomb and Hydrogen bomb were all first developed by Jews)
- Invention of the worlds first completely effective system against all types of tactical ballistic missiles
- Making a hole like the land of Israel most fertile, and a world science center in terms of High tech companies, start ups, bio medicine, bio tech, etc.

As for cultural influences, wherever Jews stayed they were remarkably exceptional and prominent in cultural and practical vocations.

For example, while in the 1920's-30's Jews consisted only 0.5% of the German population, they consisted 30% of the Nobel Prize winners in Germany.

In any influencial vocation, Jews were prominent and successful - Economics, literature, poetry, physics, medicine, etc.

That's also seen today when Israel is the country with the 3rd largest amount of Stocks in the NASDAQ, only to come after the United States and Canada.

In Israel, the largest number of Research and Development companies is Registered other than in the United States.

The ratio of Engineers and Scientists in todays world is larger in Israel than in any other place in the world, including Japan, the United States, South Korea, Ireland and China.

There is no real militaristic reason to put Hebrews/Jews/Israelites as a Civilization, but there are enough influencial, cultural and world dominant benchmarks (such as monotheism) to include them.


It doesn't really matter to me though, Firaxis didn't include them so I'll add them.

 

[bobgote]

If I'm not mistaken, there was a very similar thread on here when we had news of the civs in the expansion. I think it may even have had all the stuff about other civs to miss out too, search for it. (It may be spelt Corea in the title). But it had lots of points for Korea there.

 

[Capt Ajax]

Originally posted by Thunderfall


What?! You are not buying it because the Hebrews are not in the expansion? I hope not. Remember that Canadians, Dutch, Aussies, Belgians, Portuguese, and many others are also not in the expansion. There are only 8 new Civs: 5 directly from Civ2 -- this left only 3 spots for truly new Civs. There is no way Firaxis can please everyone.

Sorry, I should have been more spicific. I meant that I was not buying the idea that the Korean CIV is more deserveing of being included in PTW than the Hebrew CIV. I will buy PTW as soon as it hits the shelves!!!! Gotta love the game man, gotta love the game!!

 

[sealman]

Originally posted by akleindopff
I have to say I find it bizarre that the Koreans were included. Perhaps this is a marketing ploy to entice the Asian market somehow. I would have personally have chosen to include the Maya, Slavs and Jews in preference to the Koreans.
The Mayas being by far the most obvious choice having calculated the length of solar year accurately to within 12 seconds of the modern year. The Maya are surely more deserving of inclusion in this game as a truly scientific and religious race.
The Slavs were another choice overlooked. Considering that their part in history has been anything but outstanding ( having been occupied by the Turks or persecuted by the Germans ) it has to be said that these people have come to dominate eastern europe and have culture stretching back hundreds ( if not thousands ) of years and therefore deserving of inclusion in this game. And who wouldn't wish to play Vlad Tepes ( or as he was otherwise known as "Vlad the Impaler" or "Dracula" ) as their head-of-state.
The Jews ( perhaps a controversial choice considering the recent spate of events in the Middle East ) should have been included in the expansion pack. With a history spanning back to the dawn of time I believe they have earned some merit as an enduring civilization.

P.S. In relation to the Ottoman Turks being an Arab race. The Ottomans actually originally came from Central Asia and not from the Arabian peninsula, so therefore cannot be considered Arabs in the strictest sense even though their cultures have merged in recent centuries. The Turks will themselves will clearly state that they are not Arabs and have been making overtures recently to say that they are European.

The Slavs would be more of an ethnic Group rather than a Civ in and of itself. Russian, Poles, Serbians are all Slavic people (as well as others). But it would be cool to have Vlad as a leader, maybe I'll visit the leaderhead library and make a request.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
I- Invention of the three most powerful weapons in the modern world (Nuclear bomb, Neturon bomb and Hydrogen bomb were all first developed by Jews)

Sorry, doesnt wash. The US developed these. While the prominent researchers might have been Jewish, this is paramount to the Vatican laying claim to anything invented by a Catholic.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Sorry, doesnt wash. The US developed these. While the prominent researchers might have been Jewish, this is paramount to the Vatican laying claim to anything invented by a Catholic.

We are talking about the Hebrew influences.
Since Jews steam from Hebrews...

I didn't say It's an Israeli invention, I said it's an influence of the Hebrews

 

[Pangur Bán]

Simple- Korea is a large market for computer games sales.

 

[tifa9292]

korea is a world power (regional at least), 5000+ years of history, major tech advancements
see no reason not to include it

 

[tifa9292]

I'm not sayig Korea has no right to be a civ (they did, after all, invent the printing press), but I don't see them "important" enough, per se, to be included in a video game. I doubt the Koreans have had a greater influence on history than the Jews, Mayans, Incans, or even Macedonians. If someone could just give me a reason why Korea is that important, please do so.

explain how incans are more important koreans? for one, korea as a ntion survived 5000 years against all odds

 

[Spoonwood]

Another 7 and 1/2 year old thread resurrected! Sorry Tifa, I doubt those people still come around here.

 

[Bucephalus]

Seems to be happening a lot recently - very tiresome.

 

[Daeron]

Hadn't read this before. These discussions about which Civs deserve to be added over others are as amusing as they are disturbing.

At least we know that there will be a big modding community for Civ5, because it will be the same thing over and over.

 

[c_pablo]

1)arabs and ottomans dont are the same people.They are culturally different, even when they are islamic.
2)You are jew?They are a so small "civilization" to be included, so small country...
3)Age of Empire include Korea in "Conquest" expansion, maybe it is a tip...

 

[c_pablo]

- Invention of the three most powerful weapons in the modern world (Nuclear bomb, Neturon bomb and Hydrogen bomb were all first developed by Jews)

You live in Iran?

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

How the hell did a thread about Korea derail into a thread about the Jews?

 

[tifa9292]

i dont live in iran
im korean

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

I would rank Korea as a Civilization before I would rank 'America' as one!

Thanks for digging up this thread TIFA, it borders on scarry sometimes in its prejudices, but I found it telling and entertaining.

So is it possible to define what constitutes a civilization without getting into a ranking of civilizations. Any kind of ranking can only be insulting to all but the one on top.

Civilization as a word is pretty vague. Hasn't every 'civilization' had a word for outsider(barbarian,savage.) How many civilizations are there in the world today? How many have there been at any one time throughout history. Kind of depends on your perspective doesn't it? I don't see any way to pin it down.

Sorry, had some definite goals when I started this, turned into a ramble.