Why research Infernal Pact?

[Gravage]

There's been something bothering me. Why on earth would someone want to summon the Infernals? Sure I can understand if you want to add flavor to the fight, or if you want to be the infernals. But who on earth wants a neighbour who grows hells into your lands (I'm presuming that the summoning civ is evil) and destroying your improvements? Who would want a backstabbing neighbour who could break you like a twig the moment he enters (unless you're pretty far into the game/build up a quite big army)?

Imo, there should be a way bigger bonus for summoning the lads. Perhaps a special thing for the summoner so that he gets benefits from hell? Perhaps a +6 modifier from Hyborem "You summoned me.". And getting the armageddon meter up is doable without Hyborem.

Anyway, that was my 2 cents.

 

[Bringa]

Who would want a backstabbing neighbour who could break you like a twig the moment he enters (unless you're pretty far into the game/build up a quite big army)?

Also, he makes you bring him brownies.

 

[Gravage]

Shamefully that's only when you become Hyborem, not if you just summon him
And when I make brownies, no way that I'm sharin em.

 

[QES]

Brownie Mongering Aside - this is a good question.

I know the sheiam want to destroy the world - and summoning the infernals is good to that end. Could the sheiam be given some specific victory condition that allows them to win if X% of the world is covered in hellstuff?

Aslo - for other civs, I assume that hyborem is a religious based hater, and not a strength based hater. If hyborem's warscript ignores strength (or at least weakness) for whom he chooses to attack, and focuses on religion (i.e. non-ashenvale) then a weak player could summon hyborem to even the odds, so to speak.

Also - Perhaps the civ that founded the ashenvale should get bonuses (if they dont already) from hell squares. Perhaps the technology could give to that end.

Just ideas,
-Qes

 

[Bad Player]

I agree with QES.

 

[Bitwise]

Except that converting to an unpopular religion when you are already weak is just going to get you dogpiled. Also, Basium will just clean your clock.

 

[drekmonger]

Ashen Veil civilizations can survive in Hell terrain easier thanks to the "Sacrifice the Weak" civic. Hell doesn't hurt your civ much at all (esp. if you've planned on Hell terrian), while hurting civs that are not of your religion considerably. Summoning the big red wimp is incidental to this fact, in fact you can pretty much be assured that he'll be either mostly useless and/or will eventually turn on you.

Ashen Veil will be more useful (and the game more exciting) if the Armageddon counter is easier to increment.

 

[Gravage]

True that sacrificing the weak helps your civ to survive hell, but let me rephrase my question. Why want to summon Hyborem? Because even though sacrifice the weak helps with hell, hell sure doesn't benefit you.

 

[Sureshot]

it might be better to have him join into an alliance the way basium does.. currently he dies so easily he needs something

 

[Alter Ego]

In my game as the Sheaim, Hyborem declared war on me even though he was “Friendly”, was at war with several other civs and had plenty of room to expand. The Armageddon counter was high, but still. I have only played one game, but if others share the experience, and it turns out something isn’t working as intended, I think the ‘devs’ will change the Warscript first. Making Hyborem and his summoner permanent allies seems to conflict with their dislike of patterns.

As for hell, the only time it has bothered me is when after blight hits the world, desert tiles with ressources get converted into burning sands.

 

[drekmonger]

Because even though sacrifice the weak helps with hell, hell sure doesn't benefit you.

In theory, hell is a benefit via hurting everyone else more than it hurts you.

 

[Good Sauce]

I think the big problem is, everytime I've summoned Hyborem he declares war on me right away.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Because even though sacrifice the weak helps with hell, hell sure doesn't benefit you

Well, there is more to infernal pact than hell. Hell is a side effect, the benefit is the veil religion.

 

[icantcmyeye]

Ashen veil gives wicked research bonuses and access to some of the most powerful units in the game (Meshabber of Dis, Diseased Corpses, Mardero). It is great for people who want to bring the apocalypse, or who just want to get more advanced technologies faster.

 

[Blakmane]

In theory, hell is a benefit via hurting everyone else more than it hurts you.

Except, at the beginning of the game, it only spreads to evil civs....

 

[frenzyslave]

I think the big problem is, everytime I've summoned Hyborem he declares war on me right away.

I too have the same problem. I have conquered everything on my particular continental plot, and when infernal pact is researched, out he pops. He has nowhere to build a city without war, so he starts a vendetta. He could show up in the continent I invaded (lotsa expandable room there due to razed cities etc) but noooooooooo... always on my main patch

 

[icantcmyeye]

he seems more likely to appear near your capital (from what i've seen)

 

[Bitwise]

I have the opposite problem as well, where when I switch to the Infernals my old civ invariably goes to war with me. Usually it's over either religious differences (since I don't have a chance to spread AV before switching to Hyborem). Although in one game I was playing as Os-Gabella and researched Infernal Pact, switched to Hyborem and 2 turns later she declared war on me because "I'm only a man."

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

I have conquered everything on my particular continental plot, and when infernal pact is researched, out he pops. He has nowhere to build a city without war, so he starts a vendetta.

But is this even a problem with the game, not to mention with the balance, in the first place? Comon, it is a strategic game and to that a parallel universe game. We have the story and we run the game as a simulator of events. We are dealing with a deamon from hell here, it Should betray you and you Should betray him sooner or later. If you conquered the whole continent then whose fault is that he had no place to settle? It s a strategic game, some time you have to think ahead before you make some decisions. The only discussion should be here: "Should the relationship between the summoner and summoned be tighter just after the summon?" and "Should there be more benefits for summoning the red daemon?"

Now, if you summon him early then switch to him. If it is late then do not switch and just kill him. He has 3 iron and 3 fire mana so a forced trade would tighten the initial bond between them and give the summoner requested benefits.

My 2 cents

 

[Arpymaster]

Let's remember this is not the finished product. We pressed on the team for the release and now it's our time to do our job... test the game and tell them everything that doesn't work. Right now AV is a bit broken.

When I attacked with Hiborem and took cities, they changed to AV automatically, so there's no sense to raze them. But we have to keep the flow of information for the team, telling them what works or not (so they can stabilize the mod).