Why Stealth Bombers cannot Rebase to Aircraft Carriers (and other things as well)

jimc52

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
24
I bought the on-line Steam upgrade to Gods and Kings. I will ask the question first, then, why are stealth bombers not allowed to rebase to aircraft carriers? Maybe this is currently the case in a real-world US Navy, but this isn't the US Navy we are talking about, it is CIV V. I dislike the old fashioned propeller driven aircraft - yeah, they have their time alright, about 1944 or thereabouts. My feeling about it is that stealth bombers should be able to rebase to aircraft carriers.

Also, I note, that whenever (and always), when you launch a strike against an enemy from an aircraft carrier, the aircraft itself ALWAYS (and without a single exception) takes a hit loss (damage). I am not saying no damage should ever occur to attacking aircraft. I am saying that it doesn't or shouldn't always happen. In fact, it should, be based upon the likelyhood of the enemy to possess the correct technology to counter-attack and cause damage to the attacker. It is ASSININE for barbarians who are little more than cavemen with sticks and stones to DAMAGE a stealth jet bomber! What the heck are they doing? Throwing huge stones at a bomber that probably is at 5,000 feet altitude when it is dropping its bombs? If I want to send a stealth bomber to destroy a caveman level barbarian, it should wipe them out without any damage to the bomber! Now, if the barbarians have gained some advanced technology to defend against the stealth bomber, that is a different story, let's say, a barbarian group that possesses missile defense technology - now, that makes sense to me! I understand that we don't want to just make a bludgeoned to death attack on the enemy without any consequences..there need to be consequences to any attack - but I think it should be relevant to the technological ability of the enemy to launch a strike against an attack. Obviously, sticks and stones don't do it.

The game developers need to re-think the logic and present a more realistic attack-defense strategy.

I am going to make a number of posts here because I want to keep each comment or observation short and succinct. I want to know what other players think and I hope the game developers are taking note.
 
Do you have any idea how big a stealth bomber is? It would be unrealistic for one to launch from the deck of an aircraft carrier.
 
I don't think they should be carrier based simply because their range is already MASSIVE and they are OP beyond that. Once you get about 6 stealth bombers (with logistics or air repair right out of the gate due to all the late game exp boosters) you can wipe the map of any unit that shows itself.

As for the mandatory damage, it was way worse when it was 10% minimum, but still kind of lame.
 
Do you have any idea how big a stealth bomber is? It would be unrealistic for one to launch from the deck of an aircraft carrier.
It's also unrealistic for a B-17 or Lancaster to land on the deck of an aircraft carrier, but I agree with you. I wish they had dedicated Navy bombers, but I can see why they don't. We have to assume that the regular Bomber represents multiple kinds of prop-driven light, medium and heavy bombers.

The Stealth Bomber apparently represents all modern jet strategic heavy bombers (since it's the only one available). The Jet Fighter has a somewhat decent ground attack value, which is analogous to the light bombers that a carrier can deploy. You can't get the kind of heavy strategic strike capability of a strategic bomber like a B-1 or B-2 from today's carriers, so it's appopriate that Stealth Bombers can't rebase on Carriers.
 
I am not saying no damage should ever occur to attacking aircraft. I am saying that it doesn't or shouldn't always happen

This doesn't have to represent "damage". Even normal operation of equipment results in wear & tear. I'm sure you don't launch multi-million dollar top of the line super aircraft without having plenty of scheduled, incredibly in-depth maintenance. Just think of the time spent "repairing" as refueling, replacing gears, vacation time for the pilots, etc. and not "fixing hole caused by spear"
 
Thanks Jack, I knew that would be a logical answer to the question. I have never seen a real stealth bomber, but I imagined it was pretty big. I am sure, if we want to argue over US Navy capabilities, we could talk about some advanced naval bombers that have stealth features. This leads to the argument then, that the game should provide for service-related aircraft. What I mean is, an air force bomber should have the mission of an air force bomber and consequent size, whereas, a naval stealth bomber should be a different aircraft capable of performing a Naval function - therefore, smaller, maybe less capable than a big air force type stealth bomber. The answer obviously then, if we wish to consider reality, is that those aircraft assignable to a carrier should fit the size that an aircraft carrier is capable of launching and performing missions from.

Good point! I concur with your logic.
 
I kinda wish Fighters would re-classify as Fighter-Bombers and have dual roles of interceptors and tactical attack aircraft. It would only be allowed to attack units, sweep, or intercept. The Bombers would be reclassified as Strategic Bombers and could only attack cities and "pillage" tiles without the gold benefit.
 
I've gotta side with real life here. About 10 years ago, stealth bombers based in Missouri flew to Iraq, dropped ordinance and flew back. It was a 37-hour round trip. That's why they're based in the middle of the country. With one refueling in the air, they can travel 10,000 nautical miles. They don't need a carrier.
 
I admit, I had not thought about the maintenance issues. I just hope the ground crews are really good! And the parts to fix things are available.

I don't see any reason why the game developers cannot offer different aircraft, more specific to mission type. If we can have several kinds of similar army fighting units, we can have several different kinds of naval aircraft. Just using one propeller bomber to represent 5 different kinds of craft doesn't make sense to me.
 
As far as cavemen with sticks and stones go - there's virtually nowhere on earth that this is actually the case anymore, certainly nowhere on earth that might ever be bombed by stealth bombers. I'd view badly obsolete units less as literally Stone Age Warriors or Bronze Age Spearman and more as small, badly equipped but still no more than 50 years or so outdated military units.

Of course, it's a bit unrealistic for anything but dedicated anti-aircraft weaponry or fighters to successfully fight back against strategic bombers anyway, so...
 
Yeah bring in the navy bombers instead of having b17 and lancaster landing on the carrier. it looks really bad. a navy bomber with naval perks would be cool for the game balance.
 
Hmm well theres nothing technically impossible about designing a stealth fighter to operate from an aircraft carrier.

The B-2 was designed for intercontinental range and massive payload so obviously it's huge.
 
The damage aircraft take, regardless of target, can be worked out as general attrition. The U.S. lost an F-15 in Libya. Not shot down. One has never been shot down (well, by enemy fire, see below). But, oh, we've lost a few. We've also lost a B-2. Crashed while taking off.
If we want to have total realism then, you have to just randomly lose units sometimes. Your turn begins with a popup: "One of your stealth bombers crashed while taking off" "Your jet fighter crashed while conducting recon" "Your jet fighter rolled off the deck of the carrier, we're trying to figure out why". Or, since it happened, "One of your jet fighters was accidentally shot down by another of your jet fighters"
 
. It is ASSININE for barbarians who are little more than cavemen with sticks and stones to DAMAGE a stealth jet bomber! What the heck are they doing? Throwing huge stones at a bomber that probably is at 5,000 feet altitude when it is dropping its bombs? If I want to send a stealth bomber to destroy a caveman level barbarian, it should wipe them out without any damage to the bomber! Now, if the barbarians have gained some advanced technology to defend against the stealth bomber, that is a different story, let's say, a barbarian group that possesses missile defense technology - now, that makes sense to me! I am going to make a number of posts here because I want to keep each comment or observation short and succinct. I want to know what other players think and I hope the game developers are taking note.

Sorry but the Huns equivalent of the CIA is supplying the barbarians with manpads, it’s been done before.

http://www.warlordsofafghanistan.com/stinger-missile.php
 
I am sure, if we want to argue over US Navy capabilities, we could talk about some advanced naval bombers that have stealth features.

Actually most bombing takes place with fighter-bombers now (sure we may still use the big boys occassionally, but the fighters now can carry a payload that rivals the ones carried by old B-17s, the F-18 alone can carry 10 tons of bombing ordinance) and this would be represented by simply using a Jet with bonuses on Air Strike.

Bombers were never really based on aircraft carriers apart from short-term missions (our bombing of Japanese mainland was not a regular occurance - they had to strip most of the weight off the bombers and could only carry about 25 compared to 60-80 fighters).
 
stealth bombers are nerfed anyway. I kinda liked how you could just devastate everything with them pre-G&K. But now they're the second last military unit in the game (GDRs are the last ones, right?)

Isn't Grumman like developing some kind of stealth drone bomber for CVs at the moment or in the near future so the idea of a stealth naval bomber isn't that absurd.

Good thing that regular bombers can still base on carriers. Otherwise it becomes kinda stupid, unless u have that carrier transition capacity out on the sea, you can't even fly across the ocean for re-basing, for the prepared offensive.

In real life you build military bases and airfields. in-game, unless it changed in G&K, u basically need either a city in your direct or puppet control, or a carrier, to even operate the aircraft in-game? U can't transit or operate them through allied city states etc...

at least in Civ4 you could manually build forts into the warzone area, and re-base air units into those, and put a defensive unit inside. in Civ4 u could also build forts into one tile narrow strait, and move fleets through. I think both these changes would be quite nice to have in Civ5, not game breaking imo, just sensible for gameplay. Or up the re-baseing ranges into double the combat bombing range (unless its that already)

Obviously in modern times these strategic bombers have huge standalone range, B2 spirit is optimized for bombing range, and there's aerial re-fueling (which isn't in game of course)
 
I once had an ocean so wide before, the only way to get stealth bombers across was to....


Build regular bombers then base em on aircraft carriers and carry em across the ocean and base in the first city that's relatively safe against the enemy I was fighting and upgrade em to stealth bombers xD

That was an rarity tho.

for 99% of other situations, stealth bombers is incredibly powerful. I've yet to be on receiving end and I'm glad I haven't been. Especially after using em to take apart a modern country in a single turn, six cities fell because of stealth bombers then having the panzers charge in the enemy territory to nail the city instantly.

I really hope in a expansion or two, maps will get way bigger than the current "huge" map which feels way smaller than the biggest civ 4 maps i've played so that stealth bombers will get to face opposing stealth bombers for once xD
 
I'd like to see early WW2 era carriers and naval aviation be a separate research branch and non-naval aviation forbidden to land on carriers.

I would also like to see modern nuclear carriers that hold carrier specific fighters, attack bombers and specialized support units like ECM planes that reduce SAMs and AA. They should be powerful and expensive as its a not everyone who can make the huge commitment to fielding carrier battlegroups.

Modern naval and land base bombers should be able to carry cruise missiles.
 
Bombers take off and land from carriers all the time. They're just not the "big b-52's".

The earliest classic example of "a strategic bombing mission launched from a carrier" was the "Doolittle raid".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid

Stealth bombers (F117) landed on carriers in emergency situations but were never retrofitted for "carrier use" (see F117N, F117X) for a number of reasons, namely cost.

F35C is in production... it's a carrier-based multi-role aircraft, but currently mired in funding conflict and design flaws.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/12/joint-strike-fighter-13-flaws/

It's simply not possible to produce a reusable carrier-based stealth bomber right now. The materials (damage from salt environment), design (poor hook design, integration of mechanism in stealth design fuselage), and practicality of cost-vs-mission are problems the best minds can't seem to solve.
 
Bombers take off and land from carriers all the time. They're just not the "big b-52's".

The earliest classic example of "a strategic bombing mission launched from a carrier" was the "Doolittle raid".

And it is one of the few exceptions, as I stated in my previous post.

F35C is in production... it's a carrier-based multi-role aircraft, but currently mired in funding conflict and design flaws.

And in CiV, it would be represented by using a Jet with Air Strike - while the Bomber/Stealth Bomber would be reserved for the "big B-52s" and such.
 
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