Why the AI is Hostile:

An idea for liberated cities:

Instead of looking to that civilization to treat you in a better manner, have the city itself provide you with a bonus. If the liberated city has access to a luxury item you, as the glorious liberator, could receive X ammount of said luxury item per turn. If the city has no luxury items, maybe 2 food per turn from that city to your closest city as long as the liberated city has at least +3 food. If not food then production or science, or even gold. Using a bonus of luxury resources seems to mimic the real world fairly well. A city with valuable resources would be liberated sooner than one without.
 
I think the underlying problem with how the AI conducts diplomacy is that it combines every single one of your interactions into a single list, without regard for who did what to whom. They can't possibly understand why you do bad things to them after they treated you like trash, because everything bad that's ever been done by either side is equally your and their faults (although they won't acknowledge their part in it in the actual UI).

So here's an idea. The game automatically creates a list of good and bad things justifying the AI's attitude toward you... so how about it does the same for you? In the Diplomacy Overview, lists of things each AI did to you on the left, lists of things you did to each AI on the right. This system could solve a myriad of problems, and this new source of information could even let the AI act in more nuanced and creative ways.

  • AI denounces you? It shows up on the left list as an offense on their part. You denounce the AI? It shows up on the right as your offense. You denounce each other? It shows up on both sides. The AI sees matching offenses on the lists and computes the feeling to be mutual.
  • The AI demands something from you. You comply. He demands something else. You comply again. The AI demands yet again, and this time you decline. At this point, the AI looks at the list of things it did to you, and sees that it already demanded from you twice, looks at military standings, and then either apologizes ("Forgive me. I suppose I have been asking too much of you lately.") or insists more forcefully ("Perhaps you don't understand the terms of our friendship. You give me gifts, and I accept them. Got that?") How he reacts is recorded on his list for future reference by yourself and the AI.
  • Flipping the last point around, you manage to squeeze out a few things from the AI, and this is listed on his side as acts of good will on his part. But after enough such acts are accumulated on his part, he stops complying to your requests. At this point, you can apologize or threaten him, and your reaction will be recorded on your list.
  • Now let's say you've managed to do a bunch of good things for an AI (let's say Cathy), with her not returning the favor so equally. Suddenly, Cathy DoWs you and gloats about how you were a fool to trust her. But luckily for you, you have the power of diplomacy on your side! You immediately denounce Cathy, bringing to the other AIs' immediate attention both yours and Cathy's lists. Using the internal weights set for each act of kindness/evil, they are able to come to the conclusion that you've been nice while Cathy has been naughty, and will react by denouncing her as well, labeling her as a bully and straining her relationship with the rest of the world.
  • Of course, denouncements won't always work so cleanly. Let's say that this time, Gandhi declares war on you, but unlike Cathy has good reasons for it (meaning your list is showing a lot of bad things you've done to him in the past, and he's not going to lie down and take it anymore.) So before you start sending your soldiers to the front lines, you denounce Gandhi. But wait, what's this? They're all denouncing you! Turns out that wasn't such a good idea; they're looking at both your lists, and despite Gandhi declaring on you, your bad acts far outweigh his. They see you as the villain you really are. And worse, you tried to feign innocence by playing the victim! They'll distrust you even more than if you had simply let Gandhi denounce you.

These are just a handful of scenarios that are made possible using this double-list system. If you can program an AI to handle information presented in this way, you've got an AI that is far more analytical, empathic, and most importantly, capable.



An idea for liberated cities:

Instead of looking to that civilization to treat you in a better manner, have the city itself provide you with a bonus. If the liberated city has access to a luxury item you, as the glorious liberator, could receive X ammount of said luxury item per turn. If the city has no luxury items, maybe 2 food per turn from that city to your closest city as long as the liberated city has at least +3 food. If not food then production or science, or even gold. Using a bonus of luxury resources seems to mimic the real world fairly well. A city with valuable resources would be liberated sooner than one without.

Both great ideas!
 
An idea for liberated cities:

Instead of looking to that civilization to treat you in a better manner, have the city itself provide you with a bonus. If the liberated city has access to a luxury item you, as the glorious liberator, could receive X ammount of said luxury item per turn. If the city has no luxury items, maybe 2 food per turn from that city to your closest city as long as the liberated city has at least +3 food. If not food then production or science, or even gold. Using a bonus of luxury resources seems to mimic the real world fairly well. A city with valuable resources would be liberated sooner than one without.

But you already get 100+ gold from pillaging when you conquer a city. If you liberate it, you should get diplomatic influence/gratitude from the recipient civ.
 
One of the silly aspects is that these negative modifiers never expire and just accumulate. There is no way to repair a relationship in this game - once you piss them off (usually due to no act on your part but I digress) the world has permanent hate-on for you.

Rat
 
The hostile modifiers extend to other AI players as well. In my game, Siam was taking over the Guangzhou region [I was playing a TSL map] and I denounced them for it. In return, I received a denouncement from every other country on the map except India, France, the three Americans who I haven't met yet, and Siam itself. A couple turns later the entire world except those countries declared war on me, and Siam joined in the first world war. I razed Siams' Guangzhou city and demanded two others in exchange for peace, which to my surprise they accepted, and I razed both to the ground.

In the mean-time, apparently Egypt and Arabia, the two largest powers in the game at the time, declared war on each other, even though both were friends for the history of the game before then [Persia, which spawned where Mecca was supposed to be, was puppeted by Egypt]. Following that, everyone denounced everyone else due to the "You denounced a person we made a declaration of friendship with" penalty, and war declarations were being flung around left and right. Rome, France, and Germany are at perpetual war it seems, as are the Ottomans and Arabia. Japan consistently declares war on me only to revoke its declaration a few turns later with a small offering of gold or open borders, and Siam and India spar with each other constantly. It's a diplomatic nightmare.
 
It's a diplomatic nightmare.

Yup. That sums it up nicely. What the game needs, in part, is a normalization factor which constantly adjust relations over time towards neutral like it does for city states. Right now once a civ is on someone's sheet list it stays there and just gets worse.

Rat
 
It has to be harder to improve relations than to harm them. Otherwise the system is exploitable, with the human able to dictate when war will be fought. DoW, peace, improve relations, rinse, repeat.
 
It has to be harder to improve relations than to harm them. Otherwise the system is exploitable, with the human able to dictate when war will be fought. DoW, peace, improve relations, rinse, repeat.

I agree. However there needs to be some clear way of doing so, even if it is slow (for both AI and players) otherwise you will have the same results most of us see: insane mid-to-late game perpetual wars.

Rat
 
There might be something in place already, I have seen relations improve slightly. But even if so, it could be small enough and cryptic enough so that it's essentially nonexistent.

My first emporer game post patch just ended with me conceding during was with Genghis and Washington. They both DoW on the same turn about turn 320. That was the first war I had been in. Now I'll admit that this was far from an optimal game and at some point it jkind of became an excercise to see how long I could go without war. But anyway it did give me some insight into how the AI might tick.

I'd really be interested in seeing multiple people play the same game, as they normally would, and post when they went to war, and who started it. I'm sure that playstyle has a large effect.
 
I'd be happier if I could send the same things back at them. I should be able to covet lands. I should be able to tell them I don't like their warmongering. I should consider them to be expanding too aggressively.

But no, it doesn't matter. Basically, the computer can (and has always in every Civ) do absolutely anything it wants without dealing with a 'diplomatic penalty' from ME. Instead I'm the one who gets shafted when they dump cities all over my land and I crush them for the insult; they hate me forever because I declared war and flattened their aggressive settling in my land, because I can't tell them that it's my land and I will declare war to defend it.

The game needs a 'casus belli' system like Europa Universalis. It should recognise reasons for the player declaring war and link them to its own actions, actions which will take that into account. If I'm a military colossus....don't piss me off. Don't just make it a virtually binary system of Like me/Hate me weighed against Bigger Military/Smaller Military.

huh? don't you "covet the lands" of your neighbors in civ? don't you hate civs that are expanding too fast and want to knock them down a peg or two? what about wonder whores? or civs that settle near you, etc etc. the reasons they don't like are mostly legit, but I agree that there should be more positive modifiers. also, you shouldn't generate warmonger hate with india they're your buddy, they get attacked by rome, so you dow rome. or, if alexander comes to you and says "let's declare war on persia" he should like you more plus you should get 0 warmonger hate from him over that war regardless of whether you wipe persia off the map just do nothing for 10 turns and make peace.
 
I've had relations improve. I couldn't tell you why they improved, but I have had it happen.

yes, it is unclear what you can do to improve relations. I've had civs go from hostile to neutral to friendly in the past over time, however, and the other day I liberated one of greece's workers and not only got a relations boost but some of the negative modifiers disappeared.
 
First, let's take a look at the diplomatic modifiers which can improve your relationship:
-We have a DoF
-We have a DoF with the same people
-We denounced the same people
-You freed their captured citizens

Now, the negative modifiers
-They covet land of yours
-They covet wonders you built
-You're expanding to agressively
-You denounced them
-They denounced you
-You refused a request after making a DoF
-Your friends found reason to denounce you
-You denounced a friend
-You demanded the not settle near you
-You broke a promise to not settle near them
-You're a warmonger

And I'm sure there are more. Now, what do we need to fix the AI? Simply more positive modifiers, i.e.

-We're at war with the same person
-You agreed to a request after a DoF was made
-We have good trade deals
-You were merciful

And some more couldn't go amiss.

This is an excellent proposal.

I think it's weird you don't get positive modifiers for trading luxuries, or beeing at war with the same enemy or having open borders.
 
In civ 2, when other civs wants you to help them in a war, they sometimes offer you gold "for your expenses".

When you are allied with other civs, they will come to you and tell you their civ can offer you more for your alliance.

We should have these in the current Civ 5.
 
I liked it better when "Pact of Friendship" was called "Pact of Cooperation." With the old name, it really seemed to emphasize the point that "We are not BFF. There is no emotional bonding going on here. We are merely agreeing to coexist peacefully."
 
  • Now let's say you've managed to do a bunch of good things for an AI (let's say Cathy), with her not returning the favor so equally. Suddenly, Cathy DoWs you and gloats about how you were a fool to trust her. But luckily for you, you have the power of diplomacy on your side! You immediately denounce Cathy, bringing to the other AIs' immediate attention both yours and Cathy's lists. Using the internal weights set for each act of kindness/evil, they are able to come to the conclusion that you've been nice while Cathy has been naughty, and will react by denouncing her as well, labeling her as a bully and straining her relationship with the rest of the world.
  • Of course, denouncements won't always work so cleanly. Let's say that this time, Gandhi declares war on you, but unlike Cathy has good reasons for it (meaning your list is showing a lot of bad things you've done to him in the past, and he's not going to lie down and take it anymore.) So before you start sending your soldiers to the front lines, you denounce Gandhi. But wait, what's this? They're all denouncing you! Turns out that wasn't such a good idea; they're looking at both your lists, and despite Gandhi declaring on you, your bad acts far outweigh his. They see you as the villain you really are. And worse, you tried to feign innocence by playing the victim! They'll distrust you even more than if you had simply let Gandhi denounce you.

Great ideas! I think this goes a long way toward developing a "diplomatic context" for decisions made by the AI, so they could make less schizophrenic moves. Only danger I see is that you might reach a very stable point in the relationships; this would be especially a problem if there were lots of positive modifiers for trade relationships, Defensive Pacts and such. Too much stability would make for a boring game. It might be possible to undo that stability by programming the AI civs to become more aggressive when they are weak (starting more wars to gain territory, trying to pry city-states away from their traditional patrons, trying to make military pacts with other weak AIs, etc.). You see that dynamic in real life with states like Iran and North Korea, who don't feel that they benefit from the world order, so attempt to shake things up in the hope that they can benefit from any resulting changes.

The negative modifiers should always be larger, as a couple people on here said already, so that negative acts are more difficult to wash away. Those negatives should be programmed to be less of a disincentive for weaker AI civs, since they are on the road to losing anyway.
 
I liked it better when "Pact of Friendship" was called "Pact of Cooperation." With the old name, it really seemed to emphasize the point that "We are not BFF. There is no emotional bonding going on here. We are merely agreeing to coexist peacefully."

I would prefer to have pacts of secrecy and cooperation IN ADDITION TO friendship and denouncement. Also, maybe a joint denouncement (I.e. make a deal with Ramkhamhaeng to joint denounce Genghis where you both denounce).
 
(I.e. make a deal with Ramkhamhaeng to joint denounce Genghis where you both denounce).

One more layer: You have to actively denounce after making the deal. If you do it within x turns, you get bonus for working together. After x turns no bonus, and after x more turns, they think you abandoned their denouncement.
 
One more layer: You have to actively denounce after making the deal. If you do it within x turns, you get bonus for working together. After x turns no bonus, and after x more turns, they think you abandoned their denouncement.

And then if the subject of the joint denouncement DoW one of the participants, if the other participant doesn't DoW the subject the other person thinks you've abandoned them
(So if Genghis DoW on Ramkhamhaeng, and you don't DoW Genghis, you suffer a diplo hit with Ramkhamhaeng for abandoning him)
 
I would prefer to have pacts of secrecy and cooperation IN ADDITION TO friendship and denouncement. Also, maybe a joint denouncement (I.e. make a deal with Ramkhamhaeng to joint denounce Genghis where you both denounce).

^Yes to this. What goes with the devs? It looks like they just changed the same broken mechanic from negative to pseudo-positive.

Honestly, how hard is it to code/implement these ideas, let alone think of them? Most are no-brainers. You wonder what they were doing the past 2 years.
 
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