Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Pouakai, Dec 24, 2010.
What ever happened to "we're always looking for a good deal"?
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I very much like Ramesses' twin-list system here and I also think it is capable of a lot of additional refinement - meta-layers and formal levels of threat escalation, for example. Another condemnation of this game is that something like this should not be hard to specify and program, I can imagine how to do it and I'm not a games programmer - thinking about building a 1upt combat AI gives me headaches.
It would need a lot of playtesting. I can imagine the set of players going into weird feedback and strange loops, a little like the stock market or the run up to the Great War - yes, I know that was actually due to secret treaties and very very poor diplomacy, almost as bad as Civ5's - but the effect might be similar. (Actually that sort of global catastrophe would be an interesting possibility.)
The system would have to have some sort of damper, I think, to stop it going wild over trivia (the classic Sarajevo assassination thing, but maybe this should happen from time to time, it does in RL) - it should take actors a certain number of moves to react to an event. This would have to be immediate in the event of an outright declaration of war but could vary depending on the gravity of the situation.
On a meta-level, however, perhaps the damper could be damped down if events continued to mount up in a certain way. So you might get a global slide to war. The question in that case is how to engineer a postwar 'reset button' as happened in 1814, 1919 and 1945.
Though I'm kind of oriented towards the 18th century onwards, I do realise that modern diplomatic concepts might not apply well to previous eras. The answer to that might be to change the diplomatic parameters as players enter new eras. That adds extra fun as an industrial state would have to take an account of whether it was talking to a civ that was still medieval or not. It also makes eras more meaningful, they're cosmetic in Civ4, OK they determine SPs in Civ5, but I dislike SPs anyway...
I think a new system needs to implemented regarding threats and begging.
An honor system of sorts would go along way. Imagine the following set-up:
The belligerent civ would select different demands and select a threat (weak demand/medium demand/strong demand). Depending on the threat selected, a certain amount of Honor/reputation points would be wagered.
If the targeted civ gives into these demands, the belligerent civ doesn't loose its Honor/reputation points and receives its bounty.
If the targeted civ doesn't oblige. The belligerent civ looses it's wagered Honor/Reputation, but receives a quest. The quests objectives, get what was demanded. The reward, the lost honor/reputation points.
An example would be as follows:
Germany demanding 2 horses and Boston from the Americans.
Germany makes a medium threat for half their honor/reputation.
America says NO WAY!!!
Germany now looses the wagered honor/reputation but may regain it by taking Boston (and getting the gold amount of the 2horses out of the Americans.
Begging for things from the main player should cost them Honor/Reputation. ( can't stand their constant begging)
I guess I'm lucky.. usually diplomacy works out well.. I had a game recently as Arabia and I had, India, Egypt and Babylon all very happy with me because I followed their lead. I was already friends with them and noticed they denounced Germany, I did the same. They all stood allies till the end of the game, even accepting defensive pacts and completely even trades. (I will say Babylon did eventually turn on me.. it was an earth map I made with real start locations so it was getting a little tight in the mideast )
It's happened several times with other Civs too... as England I had China and Arabia as long time allies, who were right next door to me. All I did was pay attention to who they were denouncing and I was golden. I could mistreat that denounced Civ all I want and they usually were very pleased with me. I have had a couple of strange things happen tho... Like in another game as Rome... I demolished Germany and I got that line saying even though we were at war, it's all good and it's just water under the bridge... I remember being like "I razed 3 cities.. really?"
lol I do occasionally get the DoW from "friendly" civs but in those games I have CS's and some allies to help.
Diplomacy has been a big fail for me as well. I was playing as Oda with (as usual) no access to whales or fur. I had no negative interactions with any other civs or CS's, and Catherine had access to whales. I thought "what the heck, I'll trade some luxury and get happiness". WRONG. I offered ivory for whales, No deal. I offered gold for whales, No deal. I offered gold AND ivory for whales, no deal. Hit the "what will make this work" button and she wanted an Open Borders agreement, half of my treasury, and ivory, gold and a third luxury that I can't remember, just for whales.
Diplomacy in Civ V is to speak softly and carry a big stick, and the speaking softly part is optional.
The AI will take any chance it can to wipe you out, completely ignoring diplomacy.
I am pretty sure the AI is taking revenge on us for all those years of keeping friendly with the CPU all the while building a massive stack of doom with plans to destroy them.
I like multiple axes!
How about you can see their honor they are risking, and if you give in, you get stuff. So if they are making a serious threat, groveling at your feet, you agree and get massive honor boast from everyone else. (Wow! That Russian Empire groveled at the feat of the American Republic!).
Just found a new negative:
- You made an agreement to go into a co-operative war, then broke it.
Well just ran across a new Diplo bug: I liberated a CS from Spain and I get the announcement it is now a friend, but since Greece DoWed on me, it starts bombarding my units next turn because it immediately allied itself with Alex.
Flabbergasted, I open the CS diplo screen and it reads "Friends," "Peace Blocked," has a long blue bar, and "Go away, we want nothing to do with bloodthirsty tyrants such as yourself."
This one takes the proverbial cake.
Can we have a picture?
I should have taken a screenie but didn't at the time, I was caught up in two wars and put it off until I forgot about it. I just went through my savegames but unfortunately it was past the earliest save.
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