And I said "you get a penalty if you take out *any* of his (or his CS allies) cities, not just if your wipe him out." and you seemed to have ignored that. Is taking any city the same as taking all his cities? That is what I am objecting to. The guy that starts the war (after forward settling on you then denouncing) gets almost no penalty, while I get a large penalty for taking the city he jammed up in my face. A far away AI who has forward settled on you may be inclined to permawar you if you don't take any of his cities. Sure, you can leave his city there and use it for target practice, but that seems kind of sploity too.