Why where multiplayer people forgotten for brave new world?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Willburn, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. Willburn

    Willburn Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    204
    Just had my first mp game in a long while and discussed a bit with the people there.

    While now mod's work in mp games there are still problems:
    Why are there no options for starting together?
    Why is the trade system so based that 1v1 will be very hard to do because of allmost no gold? (In general city states are not used in 1v1 because they are very easy to abuse and have too much randomness to them.)

    I hope there is also some mp testers helping out firaxis currently.

    (and yes i know there are some mp patches in bnw)
     
  2. MadMage86

    MadMage86 Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    127
    Location:
    Florida
    My gripe with Multiplayer is that popups are turned off completely and AIs never contact you - for anything. No 'hey, you're on our border', 'stop settling near us', or 'go to hell, douche'. It's ing ********. Also, your in-game diplomacy options regarding other players are nonexistent; I'd like to be able to denounce at least.

    The trade system is a joke in multiplayer/with city states, but there is no reason for you to be turning off city states (if I can 'abuse' them, so can you). On the other hand, having a friendly player nearby practically guarantees you'll have more than enough gold the entire game.

    I want the option for a multiplayer game without losing anything from single player. Now.
     
  3. Shadow717

    Shadow717 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    231
    Some map like Terra are STILL missing from MP too....
     
  4. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,181
    Overall I have to say I think most people in NQ and League [The 2 major Multiplayer groups] are incredibly happy with the expansion's mechanics. As for the OP - Duels aren't exactly balanced for anything. If people want to continue doing duels, then they will have to learn to survive on minimal gold and minimal units... or leave some city states on.

    Actually most of the mechanics in BNW in my Multi experience so far, fit multiplayer better than singleplayer.
    ======

    But yea there are basic stuff that can be done:

    Give us back maps from singleplayer!
    Deal with mods
    Fix Hybrid mode [As it is, its still buggy and gets limited use only and there have been plenty of suggestions to fix the main problem with hybrid]
     
  5. ShinChuck

    ShinChuck Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Mods work in MP games? I'm probably just a derp, but where do I find this?
     
  6. Tomatekh

    Tomatekh Sahib-i-Qirani

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1,389
    Overall, the stability of MP is much better and the new turn options are appreciated.

    However, no MP mod support and AI interaction purposefully disabled makes MP a lost cause until they fix these issues.

    They don't, but custom maps do.
     
  7. Willburn

    Willburn Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    204
    Thanks guys for writing in. I have to add I am part of the NQ community myself but also discussed with some of the old ladder community from civ4 - we where mostly destroyed because now team games are allmost impossible.

    I was told mods work, but if it is just custom maps then we have another thing that needs fixed.

    But seriously, just have a starting together option would do a LOT for mp guys.

    I have played civ since civ1 on amiga with my friends sharing turns and having to change disks just to start a revolution. I love civ games so dont just think this is bashing civ. It is a great game but like title says, where mp forgotten?
     
  8. Mercade

    Mercade the Counsellor

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    2,636
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    The title claims that MP was forgotten, which it wasn't.
    - New Observer mode
    - Simultaneous Turn Mode
    - Hybrid Turn Mode; Simultaneous turns until combat occurs then switches to normal turn based turns
    - Pitboss will be included in BNW
    - Custom Maps will be able to be used in Multiplayer
    So yes, while I sympathize with your request for a start-next-to-my-buddies option, forgotten it was not.
     
  9. anandus

    anandus Errorist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    3,859
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Indeed, no other expansion or patch has improved MP as much as BNW did.

    I actually like that changes a lot :) although a standalone Steamless pitboss would be desireable (but they said they're working on that).
    And I'd also love mod compatibility, but I don't think that'll ever happen, unfortunately :(

    But apart from that, I'm actually happy with the current multiplayer improvements, especially hybrid mode and the improved lobby.
     
  10. Fabiano79

    Fabiano79 Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    337
    I still dont know why the new hybrid turns bar needed to be that big.

    It could be just 10% of the current size and people still would be able to see the sequence of turns...
     
  11. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    The main problem here is that the problems with mp are so "diversive", as there are different problems for different people:

    the good and more competetive players obviously want working duels and teamers:
    1. I dont even have to play bnw to know that the new gold system pretty much destroyed the game for these people. Seems like there are only workaround solution for games being even possible to do like having CS in game but banning several abuse mechanics.
    2. With turn based being not per team but per player all this hybrid turn thing is worthless
    3. Observermode without observers being able to look into cities is pointless, the skill and important things happen in city management screen not on map

    the bad and "family" players:
    want play mp same way as singleplayer. They d need some "coop" mode. An option to setup game like it was singleplayer but with 2 human player.
    Also these gyus need understand that ai contacting players doent fit at all to sim turn.

    The medium skilled FFA players and rnd lobby player:
    All this needed trading mechanics makes game mainly about making friends not about playing good. Also I see big problem for the people from random lobby who want fast games as trading needs time and management making 15 sec turn and 3 hour games allmost impossible. Overall I see alliances of 2 or 3 players being so strong that others might just quit games even faster as they do now. Or they stay and loose.
    They might still be the least affected mp people.
    Also the mentioned problem of hybrid mode - I just dont see it as an real option as in a usual mp game there just will be wars making game same way as pruly turn based all time. And this is just too timeconsuming

    Overall this expension seems very much "scenario like" to me and obviously this isnt made for mp.
    I dont think that crying helps, Firaxis wont listen anyway and I also see no easy bandfixes ..
    So maybe only solution is to stop play mp?
    Which is a shame on other hand as stability which been main former problem seem to be improved ...
     
  12. IdiotsOpposite

    IdiotsOpposite Boom, headshot.

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,718
    Location:
    America.
    I must thank you for calling me "bad" simply because I prefer to play WITH my friend, rather than AGAINST him. I didn't realize that in order to be considered "good", you had to love playing against humans and backstabbing each other.

    Unless I'm included in the "family" category, in which case I humbly apologize for taking offense.
     
  13. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    thats why I did write "bad and family" instead of "bad, family"
     
  14. IdiotsOpposite

    IdiotsOpposite Boom, headshot.

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,718
    Location:
    America.
    :goodjob: Just paranoia on my part then. Thanks!

    I will agree that certain things need to be done for a co-op mode. Or perhaps just for Teams in general. Here's a few of the problems I've seen so far:

    1. In my last game, I had 19 cities and my friend had 6 (he took Tradition and built tall). I'm not sure what was going on with the techs, but they would often finish for me when there were still, to me, many turns left, because HIS beaker count was enough. So some sort of normalization of tech costs for lopsided teams like that needs to be done. Otherwise, I'm having a hard time wondering why not ALWAYS have one person take Tradition for cheap-o techs.

    2. There is almost no cooperation civilian wise, which is really something I'd like to see. There really is no reason why I shouldn't be able to have a worker go into his lands, build an upgrade or something for him, and bug out. Really, no reason at all.

    3. Similarly, I think city culture needs to be reworked a bit for team games. If my friend has a city taking culture five tiles away, and I settle a city nearby, it would be nice not to have those valuable resources shut off to both of us forever. I'd really like to see some tile flipping for this sort of thing. Of course, only if it's 4-5 tiles away from one of my ally's cities. ;)

    4. Cultural victory remains somewhat awkward simply and mainly because one has to become influential over one's own ally, made either more difficult or much much easier, depending on whether the person who's not pursuing the victory condition builds culture at all.

    5. I'm divided on trade routes between allies counting as domestic. On the one hand, they are allies, and it would be rather unfair to just collect gold from each other, creating an insular and powerful empire that doesn't even need to worry about friendships with the AI. On the other, they go so far to enforce that our empires are separate in other ways (culture, workers unable to help each other, diplomatic stuff), it seems odd to suddenly count as a domestic partner for trade routes.
     
  15. turingmachine

    turingmachine Emperor

    Joined:
    May 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,438
    It has nothing to do with "bad" or "family" and the fact that you even label part of this group as "bad" shows your bias.

    It also doesn't necessarily have to be co-op. Many people enjoy hybrid games of AI and human players because they enjoy engaging with the programmed AI mechanics. In fact, removing the AI (and the current MP) actively removes mechanics from the game like the intrigue system. Adding some AI slots also lessens the problems caused by pure human players regarding the new trade system, world congress, and diplo victories.

    You're also wrong with "gyus need understand that ai contacting players doent fit at all to sim turn", as AI contact and simultaneous turns worked perfectly fine in Civ IV. There's nothing inherent to sim turn which breaks it. Multiple forum users have even suggested ways to easily implement AI contact in sim turn games. Even if it was an issue, which its not, its moot as they've implemented a non simultaneous turn option. You can have AI enabled only in non-simultaneous turn games, for all I care, just enable it. If you're playing non-simultaneous turns you're not that concerned about it being a quick game anyway.

    Finally, this isn't a niche experience that firaxis should ignore. Many people want to play the game in MP. MP without AI interaction is the game gutted, with interesting mechanics actively and purposefully removed. It really isn't much to expect and want the whole actual game when you play it, SP or MP.

    I completely agree with this. MP wasn't forgotten. However, there's also the fact that they only ever seem to get the budget to make MP improvements when they make an expansion. With this probably being the final expansion, there's the feeling that if it wasn't fixed now, then those problems will never be fixed, so forgotten by the developers overall.
     
  16. MadMage86

    MadMage86 Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    127
    Location:
    Florida
    I'm going to say straight up that I like to play with friends, but I like to play competitively, so I think the very concept of the 'team' system is ******** - they should just have ingame alliances and leave it at that. The system was in no way implemented well, either - the game still seems to think your buddy is an opponent for several mechanics (like culture victory) which pretty much break the system.

    That being said, I don't care for conquest victories. I'm past that 'adolescent' phase; I still enjoy the nukes, but conquest should be a means to an end, not the end itself. So when I play my buddies I want the full AI capabilities intact so we can have a full-on culture/science/diplomacy game. Having them turned off cripples diplomacy especially because it removes a ton of situational modifiers to diplomatic relations for no apparent reason. Byt this isn't the only diplomacy that is crippled - the options for 'interaction' with other players is also inexplicably basic and cut down that it seems like they developers considered multiplayer a 'conquest only' version of the game.
     
  17. Tridus

    Tridus Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Messages:
    132
    I can't believe they still haven't fixed that thing where the AI interaction is gone in MP. Guess Civ IV is still the better MP game.
     
  18. Willburn

    Willburn Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    204
    If you read my post carefully I ask if mp was forgotten, not that there has not been done anything for mp. I am perfectly aware of the changes they have done. I still question if they have mp testers currently. Civ 5 pretty much killed the ladder community and bigger teamgames. This is probably the last expansion. I was hoping attleast they would fix start together option for maps? This does not take long to program at all.
     
  19. ShinChuck

    ShinChuck Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Gotcha, thank you. Had my hopes up for a minute. Ah well.
     
  20. Snuffleupagus

    Snuffleupagus Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    167
    Also, are mac and pc versions not compatible for mp in BNW? didn't have this problem in GNK, so maybe I'm doing something wrong? or it's a bug?
     

Share This Page