Why wouldn't I go for Universal Suffrage/Free Speech etc?

[Kolyana]

It seems to me that certain civics are just the best ... like, the objective of the game is to reserach and adopt them asap or something.

Why wouldn't I adopt Free Speech? I mena, No upkeep nad +2 gold from town.

Likewise, Emancipation ... why not?

All of the 'final' civics seem to be targets to aspire to ... so why would I not adopt these when available?

Univeral suffrage
Free Peech
Emancipation
Environmentalism
Free Religion?

 

[Harry Haller]

It just depends on what you're doing.

Universal suffrage is nice if you want to produce things quickly, but represenation gives you more science output.

You might also want more starting experience points from vassalage or theocracy if you are in a tough war; and I don't think I've ever used environmentalism.

And so on.

 

[warpstorm]

I have to agree with HH. The only time I used Environmentalism was when I wanted to punish the AIs by forcing it on everyone. Free market and State Property are more useful for most of the game.

If you are at war there are better options than those if you are serious about it. (Vassalage and Theocracy come to mind as obvious alternatives).

One other consideration is how your allies feel about your civic choices.

 

[Exavier]

As has been said it depends on what your doing...

I usually have 2 sets i use (SP Games).
Early Game:
Representataion (Research Boosts)
Vassalage (+2 XP = Instant Promotion)
Slavery (Hurying buildings if needed)
Economy Civic rarly changes early game for me.
Organized Religion (Faster buildings)

Late Game:
Universal Sufferage (when i have money to burn)
Vassalage/Free Speech (depends on if i am at war)
Slavery (unless I start having too much unhappiness)
State Property (Enviromentalism comes 2 late to be useful)
Theocracy (used if I change off Vassalage Civic or I managed to build Pentagon)

I don't find free religion very useful because I usually found a religion and use it to watch my oponents. With the Pentagon, Vassalage, Thepcracy, Barracks/Drydock I can make units with an instant 3 promotions. Well worth any other drawbacks.

Really though its based on what you want to do and what you like

 

[Thalassicus]

The useful civics at endgame are:

Representation - Research
Police State - Warmongering
Universal Suffrage - Production

Vassalage - Warmongering
Nationhood - Emergency Troops
Free Speech - Normal

Emancipation - Normal

State Property - Normal

Theocracy - Warmongering
Pacifism - Normal with few religions present
Free Religion - Normal with lots of religions present


If Environmentalism allowed you to replant forests (which provide +3 production on any tile, equivilant to a mine) now THAT would be useful. The civic would boost health, happiness and production in trade for the economy, which is what I think they were aiming for.

Free market should also improve revenue from foreign trade routes, so that it's an alternative to State Property if you're conducting a lot of trade.

 

[Kolyana]

I tend to find that I'm always going with Emancipation and Free Speech in every game I play, regardless of if I'm at war or not ...

 

[BlackMage]

Universal Suffrage is only good if you have plenty of towns. If you don't, stick with Representation.

Of course, you should have plenty after a good bout of cottage spam.

 

[cleverhandle]

All of the 'final' civics seem to be targets to aspire to ... so why would I not adopt these when available?

Univeral suffrage - Because if you have a stable empire (no newly conquered/founded cities) there may be very little need to rush builds. Also as the food/health situation changes with later techs/improvements it may take less time to grow an extra specialist than it would take to grow a new town - Representation's +3 beaker boost is quite useful in the late game.

Free Speech - +2 XP from Vassalage can be the different between level 2 and level 3 units. That's a big difference in a war. Bureaucracy could even be viable in small empires or 1CC games.

Emancipation - Yeah, this one you're pretty much forced into eventually, except maybe in a 1CC game with the Globe.

Environmentalism - Um... yeah. High upkeep for extra health and happiness that you probably don't need and almost certainly won't have time to grow into. Free market or state property are both far, far more useful.

Free Religion - Theocracy's bonus XP can be helpful (like Vassalage) and come at a lower price tag (medium upkeep vs. high). And if you spent much of the game isolated (or as a Theocracy), you may not have enough religions to make this useful for happiness. Organized religion can occasionally be useful to spread religions after monasteries are obsoleted.

 

[Andygal]

State properly is better then any of the other economic civics!

Enivronmentalism SUCKS!

 

[Kolyana]

Nice thread ... good feedback ... thank you guys.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Though I agree with the points made in this thread, that still doesn't mean that I think the Civics can't be further balanced.
For instance, Slavery and Hereditary Rule I find are pretty pointless civics choices-ones which I mostly use as 'placeholders' until I can get the good ones ! Rep, US, Emancipation and Free Speech-OTOH-are just too good for words, especially given how cheap they are.
So, the question is how to balance them. Well I am not sure how hereditary rule can be boosted, but slavery definitely needs some kind of 'specialist' that it creates for you (which is what my current mod is all about ) and Representation and US should have higher maintainance costs (Med. for Rep. and High for US). Free Speech should come with a penalty to War Weariness, as people feel more free to voice their opinions about wars they don't like!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Adam7Eight]

I usually try to hold onto Representation for as long as I can and switch to Universal Sufferage really, really late in the game, especially if I am conquering cities. To go along side my modded epic speed, I've increased the amount of turns it takes for cottages to eventually end up as towns, therefore going to Universal Sufferage a little earlier than normal is very bad thing to do. Same goes for Free Speech, even if I hardly ever use it. Bueacracy and Vassalage are just too good to switch from, IMO.

I'll have to agree that Environmentalism sucks. I hate it.

 

[joasoze]

Though I agree with the points made in this thread, that still doesn't mean that I think the Civics can't be further balanced.
For instance, Slavery and Hereditary Rule I find are pretty pointless civics choices-ones which I mostly use as 'placeholders' until I can get the good ones ! Rep, US, Emancipation and Free Speech-OTOH-are just too good for words, especially given how cheap they are.
So, the question is how to balance them. Well I am not sure how hereditary rule can be boosted, but slavery definitely needs some kind of 'specialist' that it creates for you (which is what my current mod is all about ) and Representation and US should have higher maintainance costs (Med. for Rep. and High for US). Free Speech should come with a penalty to War Weariness, as people feel more free to voice their opinions about wars they don't like!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Hereditary Rule is very important in all games I play. It totally removes all unhappines (+1 happy face per unit in city). Its my favourite civic especially early game.

 

[MickyLuv]

'sall relative I suppose.

I used 'caste system' a lot in my first full game. Can't think of another civic that influenced that particular game quite so much. Helped balance the books at a bad time and gave freedom to choose (almost) what type of GP to pop.

Really missed it when I was forced into emancipation.

 

[The Condor]

Free Peech

Who is this Peech you speak of and why do you want to free him!?!

 

[baboon]

Who is this Peech you speak of and why do you want to free him!?!

hahaha



So, I'm usually using Theocracy because it's cheaper than Vassalage, but Vassalage is better because you do get more religions and it has some free units, right? But then, I don't want Organized Religion, because it's expensive, I'm not building any Missionairies (sp?) anyway, and the 25% faster buildings doesn't seem to weigh up to the upkeep. Hmm. What else is there? Pacifism? Maybe I'll try that.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think the only ones that aren't really balanced are State Property and Environmentalism.
State Property is still a bit too good, perhaps it should decrease the value of trade routes.. or perhaps cottages, towns, etc. should not grow under it.

Environmentalism could be balanced a number of ways, one is by adding some bonuses to it (faster forest regrowth). My personal desire is that they rework Global Warming and make Environmentalism something one does to combat it (a High maintenance Civic that benefits everyone on the map when anyone adopts it...an ideal case for a Global Civic then)

Nationalism might need a boost, I'd say something like a degree of cultural defense that can't be bombarded away. (representing partisans, etc.)
Maybe drop Free Speech to a 50% culture bonus or a +1 commerce per town.

I think the Government Civics are reasonable, Hereditary Rule is meant to be a Temporary Civic (Its available early) [at best switch its maintenance to Low and Representatives to Medium)

Labor Wise I think Slavery is also supposed to be temporary (early availablity)

Economics, mentioned above, Maybe make mercantilism available a little bit earlier?

Religion, reasonably balanced.

 

[onedreamer]

It seems to me that certain civics are just the best ... like, the objective of the game is to reserach and adopt them asap or something.

Why wouldn't I adopt Free Speech? I mena, No upkeep nad +2 gold from town.

Likewise, Emancipation ... why not?

All of the 'final' civics seem to be targets to aspire to ... so why would I not adopt these when available?

Univeral suffrage
Free Peech
Emancipation
Environmentalism
Free Religion?

Never used Env.
Almost never Free Religion.
Rarely use Emancipation.
Universal Suffrage vs Representation, depends on the situation. It's not like U.S. is a must.
Free Speach is good if you need culture, but... Burocracy and Vassalage sometimes are more needed.

 

[Bast]

I've NEVER used Free Religion. I love to have a state religion.

Pacifism for almost always. Theology for extreme war situations. Organized Religion sometimes.

I adopt Emanicipation but only because fear of unhappy people.

Police State and State Property are also nice. State property gives you a boost in food. So I usually do go without Environmentalism and Universal Suffrage.

Vassalage is something that I often adopt. Free Speech is nice. But not always.

 

[zafyro]

Enviromentalism is only a need when you play a though game and you do not have food resources [+5 health is a lot] I do not use it normaly but i have needed it once. Anyway i shouyld give it any other bonuses like... extra forest growth or posibility to create forests...

State of property is great but you loose one trade route or one extra specialist... it´s just fine if you have a really wide empire.

Nationalism does not need a boost... you can create in one turn a whole army... that´s just too much of a bonus. I have used it to create a defensive force onn the games i have been sneak atacked.

monarchy: Balanced, the bonus is great. No luxuries = garrisons. Rerpeentation does not outmach it with its top cities happy bonus as the rest does not guet the extra.