Will Civ V have diverse units?

[Swashbuckler.]

In vanila civ 5 no.
I think we will see ethnically diverse units in a expansion pack(s).

 

[Arkangelus]

Over the grand scheme of the full 6000 years of history and the 18 civilizations, real unit diversity is something that will really only apply to a single civ and the last 2-300 years or so. America is the only civilization that really has any true mix of ethnicities over the entire course of its history (I suppose arguments may be able to be made for Rome), and even in that case its already being stretched with Washington being founded as the capital in 4000BC.

From what we've seen so far though, instead of a trio of units representing a legion, troop etc, the individuals making it up have been scaled right down and now there are 20 or 30 in formation. Its likely that even at max resolutions and zoom you're going to struggle to see anything beyond a single beige pixel for a face, it'll be far more identifyable by the equipment of the group as a whole.

In the case of America though, it'd be entirely reasonable if the detail settings are higher than that for the mix of the 30 units to be 12 of them one skin tone, 14 another etc. Its likely that military styles will differ from civ to civ anyway so that might not be too much effort to incorporate, and even if like the previous ones for older techs they follow the western european styles, they're likely to have a modern-era UU who could follow that. A special forces platoon who are authentically mixed race/gender? While we're still speculating, the ancient units might well be 5 rows of 6 spearmen, but the modern infantry units design could well incorporate ground troops, snipers, spotters, APCs and more as opposed to the "mechanised infantry" unit from IV that was represented by a single APC.

 

[Ahriman]

America is the only civilization that really has any true mix of ethnicities over the entire course of its history (I suppose arguments may be able to be made for Rome)

An interesting question. I think "over the entire course of its history" is an unrealistic requirement, but which Civs had large numbers of "foreign" ethnic troops in their armies for significant periods of time?

US actually kinda fails on that one; nearly all US soldiers were white until WW2 (with a few exceptions like the so called Buffalo Soldiers).

Rome, as mentioned, with various auxiliaries.
Similarly Carthage with Iberians and Gauls.

Byzantine recruited from all parts of the Empire.

Ottoman Empire employed large numbers of Balkan Janissiaries.

British Empire had very large numbers of Indian sepoy soldiers throughout its wars in India, and then moderate numbers of Indian and Nepalese (and some small groups like Maori) in WW2.

Alexander's conquests were largely fueled by local recruits as he made his way through the middle east.

Russia used Central Asian troops (especially cavalry) in their armies.

Egypt used some Nubian/Sudanese soldiers.

Dunno about mongols... I'm guessing mostly general central Asian.

Did Spain recruit significant numbers of indigenous Latin Americans during colonial periods?
Similarly Portugal?

Any others that people can think of?

Its an interesting contrast between needing manpower vs wanting to keep weapons in the hands of those more politically reliable to the regime.

 

[Thormodr]

An interesting question. I think "over the entire course of its history" is an unrealistic requirement, but which Civs had large numbers of "foreign" ethnic troops in their armies for significant periods of time?

US actually kinda fails on that one; nearly all US soldiers were white until WW2 (with a few exceptions like the so called Buffalo Soldiers).

Rome, as mentioned, with various auxiliaries.
Similarly Carthage with Iberians and Gauls.

Ottoman Empire employed large numbers of Balkan Janissiaries.

British Empire had very large numbers of Indian sepoy soldiers throughout its wars in India, and then moderate numbers of Indian and Nepalese (and some small groups like Maori) in WW2.

Alexander's conquests were largely fueled by local recruits as he made his way through the middle east.

Russia used Central Asian troops (especially cavalry) in their armies.

Egypt used some Nubian/Sudanese soldiers.

Dunno about mongols... I'm guessing mostly general central Asian.

Did Spain recruit significant numbers of indigenous Latin Americans during colonial periods?
Similarly Portugal?

Any others that people can think of?

Its an interesting contrast between needing manpower vs wanting to keep weapons in the hands of those more politically reliable to the regime.

The Mongols used troops from all over Asia in their armies. Chinese, Korean, Central Asian, Middle Eastern etc.

 

[Mekajiki]

It's painfully obvious that the inclusion of a full set of diverse units(huge waste of time) is not what you're looking for as much as just including your own race so that you can have your own race in the game as well. Your replies are showing the void between the guise of ethnical inclusiveness that you're "proposing" and what you're really trying to obtain here.

If you want them all, then that's just a waste of time, and they're not going to JUST add black units to the game so a certain small percentage of player will be more happy. It's just not going to happen, get over it.

 

[bonafide11]

It's painfully obvious that the inclusion of a full set of diverse units(huge waste of time) is not what you're looking for as much as just including your own race so that you can have your own race in the game as well. Your replies are showing the void between the guise of ethnical inclusiveness that you're "proposing" and what you're really trying to obtain here.

If you want them all, then that's just a waste of time, and they're not going to JUST add black units to the game so a certain small percentage of player will be more happy. It's just not going to happen, get over it.

Well that was a stupid post. When did I ever state my race? How would you know what race I am? I'm not even sure what you're getting at, but I just made two points. 1). I hope Civ has diverse units for different civilizations, like many mods had in Civ IV and like Civ Revolution had, as it adds much more flavor to the game. 2). Representing the American civilization as solely white is obviously very problematic considering the contributions other races have made to the civilization. It is a Eurocentric approach to make the Americans only a white civilization.

Notice that in neither of those points did I state my race.

 

[Mekajiki]

It's not hard to deduce your race. Had you read beyond the part of my post that you bolded, I layed out how I know what your race is. Simple: your replies in this thread.

Things like "Make a white and a black and one in between, and everything else is fine"

When people probe you to include a detailed ethnical list, you shut them down because once the black race is added to the white and asian(in between in a way) already included, it's not really important to you anymore.

Hell, black units are already in the game. So they're not in the American civilization, so what? The US, even today, at its highest level of racial diversity, is still almost 80% white.

 

[bonafide11]

It's not hard to deduce your race. Had you read beyond the part of my post that you bolded, I layed out how I know what your race is. Simple: your replies in this thread.

Things like "Make a white and a black and one in between, and everything else is fine"

When people probe you to include a detailed ethnical list, you shut them down because once the black race is added to the white and asian(in between in a way) already included, it's not really important to you anymore.

Hell, black units are already in the game. So they're not in the American civilization, so what? The US, even today, at its highest level of racial diversity, is still almost 80% white.

This is really amusing. I'm actually white. I can post a picture and prove it, if you don't believe me.

The only black units in the game are the unique units. Zulu musketmen, archers, workers, etc. are ALL white. If you don't think that looks stupid, you're the first one I've heard say that. That's why there are plenty of mods that have created diverse units, and that's why Civ Revolution implemented this.

As for as why I said they could use three different colors -- white, black and something in between -- is because, as I already explained, the only way to represent races in the game is with SKIN COLOR. The graphics not very detailed. Can you honestly say that with the graphics in Civilization, you can represent the hispanic race differently than the Asian race or American Indian race? No, of course you can't. All you can do to represent the races is make different shades of skin color. An African unit would obviously be black, most European units would be white, but for Asian and Hispanic units, you'd have to use a shade of brown. What else can you do to make an Aztec worker appear any different from a Chinese worker? If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them, but with the small amount of detail in Civ graphics, it'd be pretty damn hard to do. This is also why it's NOT a huge waste of time -- you only need a few skin colors to represent diverse units, which would be fairly easy.

 

[bonafide11]

The US, even today, at its highest level of racial diversity, is still almost 80% white.

By the way, that number is counting hispanics as white. On the census bureau, if you state you're white, you have to say if you're of hispanic origin or not. Based on what most Americans consider "white," America is actually more around 65% white.

 

[Mekajiki]

This is really amusing. I'm actually white. I can post a picture and prove it, if you don't believe me.

Okay, false assumption. Bad luck there :/

The only black units in the game are the unique units. Zulu musketmen, archers, workers, etc. are ALL white. If you don't think that looks stupid, you're the first one I've heard say that. That's why there are plenty of mods that have created diverse units, and that's why Civ Revolution implemented this.

And for civilizations that are majority black, this SHOULD be implemented. Zulu, obviously, is one of those. Getting in to ethnically diverse units within other civilizations should not be done. The majority ethnicity should be implemented and the rest are a waste of time.

As for as why I said they could use three different colors -- white, black and something in between -- is because, as I already explained, the only way to represent races in the game is with SKIN COLOR. The graphics not very detailed. Can you honestly say that with the graphics in Civilization, you can represent the hispanic race differently than the Asian race or American Indian race? No, of course you can't. All you can do to represent the races is make different shades of skin color. An African unit would obviously be black, most European units would be white, but for Asian and Hispanic units, you'd have to use a shade of brown. What else can you do to make an Aztec worker appear any different from a Chinese worker? If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them, but with the small amount of detail in Civ graphics, it'd be pretty damn hard to do. This is also why it's NOT a huge waste of time -- you only need a few skin colors to represent diverse units, which would be fairly easy.

Full skins, including clothes for the model are needed. This is the system already in place, and it's fine how it is.

By the way, that number is counting hispanics as white. On the census bureau, if you state you're white, you have to say if you're of hispanic origin or not. Based on what most Americans consider "white," America is actually more around 65% white.

Which is still not only a hefty majority, but many times larger than any other race. That's why the American units in Civ are implemented as white. Same with European civs.

 

[Arkangelus]

I was under the impression that, for example, Zulu musketmen did look different? I know that there is a range of differen regional models, but the only one I can be 100% sure on is the Knight looking extremely different between regions. I'd assume that in the old Civ 4 system it'd just be a case of the unit skins being slightly tweaked, in terms of both skin and uniform colour and style, but the Civ 5 style of unit representation looks to be very different again.

Since the American civilization wasnt really around in the time of spearmen and the like, there are leaps of faith taken either way and I'd assume that the easiest method would be that up until industrial/modern times, the American style and culture would just follow the European civs as its tended to before. When it comes to later in the game units tend to get a little more generic, but assuming we go the path again of America having a late-game UU it'd definately be reasonable for it to be mixed-demographic in whatever way its represented, in reflection of the real diverse modern US military.

The Gurkha suggestion for England/Britain is a good idea too, but I'd assume that the UU for England in game will be naval or a redcoat, and the whole concept of Gurkhas would be more entwined with the allied city-states that have a military bonus. Swiss Pikemen, Numadian Cavalry, Gurkhas and the like (maybe even the Siam elephants that have been mentioned?) would fit that mechanic well.

 

[Thormodr]

There seems to be a lot of anger in this thread. Having distinctive Asian looking units for Asian units and European looking units for Europeans etc. is perfectly reasonable.

It's really not a big deal.

I'm sure no one is asking for 5 different kind of looking Russian troops for example. A uniform look is fine.

Furthermore, I'm sure no one is asking for French units to look distinctly different than English ones.

Just make them for Asian, South Asian, European, African and Meso American plus maybe one more.

How this could be construed as a waste of time is beyond me.

 

[Mekajiki]

There seems to be a lot of anger in this thread. Having distinctive Asian looking units for Asian units and European looking units for Europeans etc. is perfectly reasonable.

It's really not a big deal.

I'm sure no one is asking for 5 different kind of looking Russian troops for example. A uniform look is fine.

Furthermore, I'm sure no one is asking for French units to look distinctly different than English ones.

Just make them for Asian, South Asian, European, African and Meso American plus maybe one more.

How this could be construed as a waste of time is beyond me.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that model of doing things. I was disagreeing with the idea that bonafide and a few others were proposing where multicultural civilizations like the US have multi-cultural units with multiple skins. THAT is a waste of time. What you're proposing is what I believe should be done as well.

 

[Thormodr]

I don't think anyone disagrees with that model of doing things. I was disagreeing with the idea that bonafide and a few others were proposing where multicultural civilizations like the US have multi-cultural units with multiple skins. THAT is a waste of time. What you're proposing is what I believe should be done as well.

Surely it wouldn't be too hard to do that though. Just change the skin color for the American units or whatever Civ it is.

I don't really care if they did exactly that but I don't think it would be extremely difficult for the artists.

 

[-Perceval-]

This is really amusing. I'm actually white. I can post a picture and prove it, if you don't believe me.

The only black units in the game are the unique units. Zulu musketmen, archers, workers, etc. are ALL white. If you don't think that looks stupid, you're the first one I've heard say that. That's why there are plenty of mods that have created diverse units, and that's why Civ Revolution implemented this.

As for as why I said they could use three different colors -- white, black and something in between -- is because, as I already explained, the only way to represent races in the game is with SKIN COLOR. The graphics not very detailed. Can you honestly say that with the graphics in Civilization, you can represent the hispanic race differently than the Asian race or American Indian race? No, of course you can't. All you can do to represent the races is make different shades of skin color. An African unit would obviously be black, most European units would be white, but for Asian and Hispanic units, you'd have to use a shade of brown. What else can you do to make an Aztec worker appear any different from a Chinese worker? If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them, but with the small amount of detail in Civ graphics, it'd be pretty damn hard to do. This is also why it's NOT a huge waste of time -- you only need a few skin colors to represent diverse units, which would be fairly easy.

Sorry guy but where did you learn that spanish was not "white"? I passed a lot of my holidays in spain and everybody is white, even in analousia .


Ok to come back to the subject, i really think that CIV5 shopul include a proper ethnically style for each civ like the mod varietas delectat did for CIV4. It would be a shame that culturally diverse would be not present in civ """FIVE""".

In all case, for the antiquity, the uniforms represent well the ethnically diverse. In the picture we can see that greeks are not like persians ect because of different uniform so i think that each civ in the game will have her own ethnical units...i saw it on the screenshots!


I hope that there will be ethnic ctystyle too for each civ, i don't think that persian, mongolian and chinese cities was the same because they were in asia!

For the modern area it's more complicated, in VD, the mod mixed old and new buildings...good idea(in athens there's still greeks temples!).

For the unit, i know that an ethipian is phisically very different to a malinese but the unit detail in the game is to low to show such things, so they just should be black(maybe with different uniforms too, alittle flag on the shoulder like in VD is a good idea).

For the american, 20% of units in a regiment should be black. I mean, african american are in america sinc a lot of time, so why an irish who came in 1900 will be called "pure american" and an african familly whom ancestor came in 1600 will be called "afro-american. It's just stupid, even if for me the only pure american are ameridian!

 

[bonafide11]

Sorry guy but where did you learn that spanish was not "white"? I passed a lot of my holidays in spain and everybody is white, even in analousia .

I didn't say Spanish people are not white. I said most people in the United States do not think of Hispanic (Latino/Latina) people as white. You can't really debate that. Most Americans consider Mexicans, Cubans, Domincans, etc. to be a different race than white. On the census, however, they're listed as white (but of Hispanic origin). I'm not saying they're not white (and I'm not talking about people in Spain, but people in Latin America), but that's what most Americans assume.

 

[Shurdus]

Such a non-issue. modders will make this within the first few weeks of release and it will be available in-game with the new system for sharing mods that they are working on. Firaxis would better not spend times on things like this because soon enough some one makes better skins because they do not like the default and everyone will use that one.

 

[bonafide11]

Such a non-issue. modders will make this within the first few weeks of release and it will be available in-game with the new system for sharing mods that they are working on. Firaxis would better not spend times on things like this because soon enough some one makes better skins because they do not like the default and everyone will use that one.

See, I disagree completely. Civfanatics tend to overestimate how many people use mods. Sure, most people who come here end up using mods, but most Civ players don't come here and most don't know about the mods. Plus it'd be nice to have the diverse units for multiplayer games.

 

[Ahriman]

Bonafide; it would be much easier understanding what you're talking about if you clarified when you're talking about inter-faction vs intra-faction "diversity".

I didn't say Spanish people are not white. I said most people in the United States do not think of Hispanic (Latino/Latina) people as white. You can't really debate that. Most Americans consider Mexicans, Cubans, Domincans, etc. to be a different race than white. On the census, however, they're listed as white (but of Hispanic origin). I'm not saying they're not white (and I'm not talking about people in Spain, but people in Latin America), but that's what most Americans assume.

To clarify this side-issue; most Mexicans and Latin-Americans have a significant genetic ancestry from indigenous Americans, not just from Iberian colonists. (And in Brazil and the Caribbean, often from African slaves.)
Unlike in North America where "white" Americans are mostly descended from British/German/French/Polish/Italian European colonists and migrants, thanks to genocide of the indigenous population.

 

[bonafide11]

Bonafide; it would be much easier understanding what you're talking about if you clarified when you're talking about inter-faction vs intra-faction "diversity".

My mistake, let me clarify. Here are the two points I'm making.

1). I feel strongly that Civ V should have diverse inter-faction units. It was very disappointing to me that Civ IV did not and that all units for every civilization looked the same. It adds flavor to the game when Zulu archers look different than British archers, etc. Plus it looks ridiculous when every single unit is white in the game. I am hopeful Civ V will implement diverse inter-faction units though because if I recall correctly Civ Revolution did and diverse unit mods were very popular.

2). The second point I feel less strong about, but I'd like to hear feedback because I think it would be a good idea. I find it problematic that there is no intra-faction diversity among units in Civilization, especially in civilizations such as the Americans where there is a large and significant black and hispanic population. I realize the criticism of this idea is that every unit should look the same, but from screenshots we've seen of units, there are roughly 15 men within a single unit. One screenshot showed a single unit of warriors (I think), and a few of the warriors were wearing antlers on their heads. So clearly not every soldier within a unit looks the same, so if Civ is already making the soldiers within a set of units look different, they should also make them racially diverse, at least for the American civilization. If every single soldier or worker in the American civilization is white, it makes it seem like America is a solely a white civilization, whereas we all know that America is a racially and culturally diverse civilization, and we should be celebrating that instead of hiding it.