Will rise and fall fix major issues? I have my doubts.

When you destroy a Civilization you are eliminating competition altogether and that should be its only reward, not free cities and free population.

Gaining cities and population was the overall incentive for most rulers in the past who embarked on campaigns of conquest. Cities and population equate to wealth and power...usually.

3: Conquered cities most certainly do not behave like your own people. They hate you for conquering them and they are prone to rebellion. Again R&F doesn't seem to show this because captured cities suddenly start exerting loyalty instead of rebellion for your civilization. This can be implemented by penalizing yields from conquered cities for the rest of the game. AI should also refuse to cede cities to the Player and those cities retain occupied status for the rest of the game.

The condition you describe has only been prevalent for the last couple centuries (especially since the "Springtime of Nations" 1848, 1849). Before that, conquered cities generally behaved pretty well unless the new ruler was particularly cruel and murderous. Otherwise, the general populace was more concerned about their daily bread than the new flag flying over the city. Often, they cared little if the new ruler spoke a different language or held to a different faith. All that mattered was if and how their own lives were affected. Yes, many a conqueror caused great upheaval by taking slaves, or massacring the male population and carrying off the women. Sometimes there were new and prohibitive taxes or forced religious conversions. But just as often, the new ruler let the people go about their business.

Well if there was a solution in line with historicity I'm all for it but I assure you that price is not harsh at all.

And therein lies the question. Do you want a game that remains in line with how civilization as a whole progressed through history, or do you want to steer the game away from that to bolster peaceful play? Neither is wrong, but it certainly requires some adjustments. Some of the suggestions you made would certainly do the trick, but it would be a bit of a step from reality.

However, more in step with reality, forcing the player to make some immediate decisions concerning the conquered city might help. If the player does nothing, the yields could be reduced for a time until some measure of loyalty is developed. But if the player is seeking a short term advantage, he might be allowed to extract blood and treasure from the conquered city which would cause all sorts of problems. Rebellion, long term loss of yields, etc. Or, the player might even be allowed to pour money into the city to bolster its loyalty. Leave a garrison there, which might have its own risks. There are a number of possibilities that would be nominally true to reality.
 
The condition you describe has only been prevalent for the last couple centuries (especially since the "Springtime of Nations" 1848, 1849). Before that, conquered cities generally behaved pretty well unless the new ruler was particularly cruel and murderous. Otherwise, the general populace was more concerned about their daily bread than the new flag flying over the city. Often, they cared little if the new ruler spoke a different language or held to a different faith. All that mattered was if and how their own lives were affected. Yes, many a conqueror caused great upheaval by taking slaves, or massacring the male population and carrying off the women. Sometimes there were new and prohibitive taxes or forced religious conversions. But just as often, the new ruler let the people go about their business.
You would think fans of Civilization would understand this more than normal people, since the "Nationalism" civic is way, way down the civic tree and always has been.

The concept of "nations" as a thing is a relatively new idea. After all, it was only in World War 1 that the *British* monarchy dropped the name House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in favor of "House of Windsor" because it sounded too German (which it is... because they're German). The Ottoman Sultans are seen through modern eyes as "progressive" for ruling such a multicultural empire, when in reality they actually treated all of their subjects differently and taxed non-muslims for being non-muslims. Up until (at the minimum) the 18th century, a foreign conqueror wasn't the worst thing if the new ruler didn't brutalize the peasants.
 
The concept of "nations" as a thing is a relatively new idea. After all, it was only in World War 1 that the *British* monarchy dropped the name House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in favor of "House of Windsor" because it sounded too German (which it is... because they're German). The Ottoman Sultans are seen through modern eyes as "progressive" for ruling such a multicultural empire, when in reality they actually treated all of their subjects differently and taxed non-muslims for being non-muslims. Up until (at the minimum) the 18th century, a foreign conqueror wasn't the worst thing if the new ruler didn't brutalize the peasants.

It makes the Queen Victoria animation all the more interesting because her first language was German.
 
It makes the Queen Victoria animation all the more interesting because her first language was German.
Don't knock it. She's adorable. Plus, I like stuff that depicts young Victoria and not just ancient stately Victoria.
 
Thus, having explained what makes warmongering so profitable, the most obvious solution is to directly target what causes it to be profitable in the first place.

3: Conquered cities most certainly do not behave like your own people. They hate you for conquering them and they are prone to rebellion. Again R&F doesn't seem to show this because captured cities suddenly start exerting loyalty instead of rebellion for your civilization. This can be implemented by penalizing yields from conquered cities for the rest of the game. AI should also refuse to cede cities to the Player and those cities retain occupied status for the rest of the game.

I was happy with the old corruption mechanic. Never understood why they abolished it. Large civilizations should simply be hard to govern, many cities should result in less production, food, gold even in your core cities. In this way, building/conquering too many cities is actually disadvantageous, because it makes your core cities less productive.

This can be ameliorated to an extend by implementing advanced governments which reduce the "corruption" & allow you to effectively govern more cities.
 
Gaining cities and population was the overall incentive for most rulers in the past who embarked on campaigns of conquest. Cities and population equate to wealth and power...usually.

Rulers that conquered care only about two things: Wealth and Glory. Not infrastructure. And infrastructure is the main reward of warmongering in Civ 6. Remember what happened to most of the Ancient Wonders? All razed to the ground. Remember why the Mongols/Huns were so feared? They razed countless cities. If you want to claim the high ground of historicity, do a fairer job please. If they could get the wealth by killing people instead of ruling over them, they would do it.

Why? There are huge administrative costs and risks associated with ruling a huge empire and foreign peoples. A cost not seen in Civ 6. Remember why Rome fell apart again? Why don't we see that happening in Civ 6?

The condition you describe has only been prevalent for the last couple centuries (especially since the "Springtime of Nations" 1848, 1849). Before that, conquered cities generally behaved pretty well unless the new ruler was particularly cruel and murderous. Otherwise, the general populace was more concerned about their daily bread than the new flag flying over the city. Often, they cared little if the new ruler spoke a different language or held to a different faith. All that mattered was if and how their own lives were affected.

Tell that to the Jews at Masada, or Romans who constantly had to deal with rebellions. Why did the Mongol empire fall apart again?

Yes, many a conqueror caused great upheaval by taking slaves, or massacring the male population and carrying off the women. Sometimes there were new and prohibitive taxes or forced religious conversions. But just as often, the new ruler let the people go about their business.

You can't pretend to acknowledge something and then take it back with the other hand you know. How do you propose this fact be implemented in a way that adds a proper price tag to warmongering?

And therein lies the question. Do you want a game that remains in line with how civilization as a whole progressed through history, or do you want to steer the game away from that to bolster peaceful play? Neither is wrong, but it certainly requires some adjustments. Some of the suggestions you made would certainly do the trick, but it would be a bit of a step from reality.

Complex statement with unbridled profitability of warmongering assumed to be a historical fact when it obviously isn't. You want historicity? Have all major warmongering empires crumble at some point of time.You can't claim that warmongering is so beneficial but then reject what happens to those Civilizations after that. Two sides of the same coin.

Perhaps you would like to single out which part of administrative costs, corruption, and rebellion that results in empires falling apart is "unrealistic."

However, more in step with reality, forcing the player to make some immediate decisions concerning the conquered city might help. If the player does nothing, the yields could be reduced for a time until some measure of loyalty is developed. But if the player is seeking a short term advantage, he might be allowed to extract blood and treasure from the conquered city which would cause all sorts of problems. Rebellion, long term loss of yields, etc. Or, the player might even be allowed to pour money into the city to bolster its loyalty. Leave a garrison there, which might have its own risks. There are a number of possibilities that would be nominally true to reality.

From a balance perspective because warmongering is overly rewarding it needs to be overly nerfed in order to make room for other strategies. If at the end of the day the player still gets free cities more efficiently than building them or if warmongering is always better than any form of diplomacy and peaceful collaboration than any of those measures you mentioned is simply lip service. See the warmongering penalties now? That's a perfect example of lip service. Is that the kind of restrictions you are talking about?
 
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Why? There are huge administrative costs and risks associated with ruling a huge empire and foreign peoples. A cost not seen in Civ 6. Remember why Rome fell apart again? Why don't we see that happening in Civ 6?

A better example would probably be Alexander, who conquered a huge empire but was murdered as soon as he sat down & tried to rule it. Although we do not know by whom.

The condition you describe has only been prevalent for the last couple centuries (especially since the "Springtime of Nations" 1848, 1849).

You would think fans of Civilization would understand this more than normal people, since the "Nationalism" civic is way, way down the civic tree and always has been.

The concept of "nations" as a thing is a relatively new idea.

I personally feel that this is not completely wrong, but also not completely true. You can find stories like the exodus of Jews from Egypt & Babylon to found their own countries as early as thousands of years ago. There is a reason why some people say that the idea of "nationalism" is rooted in the old testament.
 
Why? There are huge administrative costs and risks associated with ruling a huge empire and foreign peoples. A cost not seen in Civ 6. Remember why Rome fell apart again? Why don't we see that happening in Civ 6?

I agree there are costs and risks and that is what I am trying to address. But there were also benefits and that part cannot be ignored.

Certainly there are exceptions throughout history, but most of the rebellions the Romans faced were not from 'peoples' seeking 'freedom' in some idealistic way. Such things were mostly led by opportunists who believed they saw a chance to slice off a piece of the empire for themselves. Sometimes it was foederati who revolted because payments from Rome became slow or stopped.

Even those so-called barbarians who essentially took over running the empire in the west had enough brains to try and preserve as much infrastructure as possible. They even preserved many Roman laws for those who were still considered "Roman" citizens. As the Normans moved through Europe and into the Mediterranean, they did not raze cities. They indulged themselves with the wealth of their conquests and often adopted much of the culture. Sure, you can throw up some exceptions, but more often than not cities did not stop production, or cease commerce or become dens of despair simply because a new tyrant took over. Were that the case, few cities would have ever survived to the modern era.

As I tried to point out earlier, the real challenges that face such empires is not well addressed in Civilization6. Opportunism, more than anything, is what caused decay in virtually every empire, large and small. The Mongol Empire began disintegrating because of infighting between the Khan's many successors more than anything. That makes for a very weak central power base. That in turn allows for opportunism in the outlying areas.

The Holy Roman Empire, upon the death of Charlamagne (who was known for building infrastructure) broke apart because Charlamagne bequeathed his empire to three sons who immediately began slicing it up. The Ottomans, as they made their conquest of the Eastern Roman Empire, had little interest in destroying the markets and trade routes that were so profitable. In the beginning, there was even some tolerance shown to the Greek Orthodox church.

You rightly pointed out that Wealth and Glory were prime motivators for conquests. But the real wealth wasn't found in chests in the palace. The real wealth was in the infrastructure and many a conqueror understood this. Of course, sometimes the conqueror simply removed the conquered population in favor of his own people. I am sure some saw it better than knocking everything down and starting from scratch.

But, getting back to the game mechanics, we must ask ourselves what, traditionally, are the major challenges of holding an empire (or any polity) together? Well, two of the most prevalent motivators of intra-empire strife were.....Wealth and Glory. When the ambitious individual saw a chance, they took it. Sometimes it was met with failure. Sometimes, the ambitious party was from outside the empire but saw the ripe fruit waiting to be plucked. Whatever the case, the two most effective counters to this were Intimidation and Prosperity. The Intimidation factor was not only meant for the basic populace, but mostly for the local nobility and administrators who might be harboring thoughts of glory and wealth of their own. It was also intended for those neighbors who were awaiting that hint of weakness that would allow them to ride in.

Prosperity was also intended mostly for the nobility and administrators, who in turn kept the local population in check usually by keeping them busy and fed. The comfortable Duke or Count or Burgermeister who had a nice home, nice things, little to do
and a few concubines on the side was less likely to risk it all just to become more responsible for it.

These are the sorts of things I would like to see reflected in the game. Not some abritrary "hey, we don't want to be conquered!" mechanic. Although it would become far more appropriate in the late game when 'nationalism' is a far more widespread ideal. How the conquered city reacts should be very much dependent on how the conqueror treats it. Each act could have its share of bonuses and penalties.

So you're empire needs cash and you decide to strip the cities coffers bare, as well as its great works. You even get some gold from 'dismantling' some wonders or other buildings. Thats great in the short term, but how well can the city perform now? What burden has it become? How happy are the people?

Your empire needs labor, so you reduce the population by one half (converting it into cogs to be spent elsewhere) for slave labor. That certainly doesn't make you a hero to the people.

You don't like their religion, you don't like their culture, its all incompatible with what you've been building so you masscare the whole lot and slowly send your own settlers in to repopulate. However, it takes time for all those districts to get up and running again and their maintenance cost goes way up.

Your armies need manpower, so you impose conscription. You can levy one melee unit per unit of population immediately, but that unit starts at half the strength of a regular. Also, its a major hit to the 'loyalty' factor...as well as any other 'health' guage for the city.

Maybe you want to be benign and you do nothing but let the city run as it was. There is no immediate penalty, but all yields are reduced by half anyway. Why? Corruption is more rampant when the administrators don't believe anyone is really looking. Loyalty might drop after the initial conquest, but the people might start to ease up if their lives are not overly upset in the meantime. It would simply be a long process before the city could fully integrate into the workings of the empire.

You want to be a great benefactor. You flood the conquered city with bread and circuses. The nobility is happy, the merchants are happy, even the peasants are happy and the city prospers....until you finally pull the funds and hope the city does well on its own. There could be a precipitous drop of loyalty for as long as the funds were in place.

The main theme here is, that conquest of the city is not, by itself, cause for any major change in the city's operation. It all depends on how the conqueror treats the conquered and in my opinion, that is what should be reflected in our game.
 
@Karpius

You've raised many points, and I agree that many of them would be interesting if they are reflected in the game. But, you do realize that all those are completely pointless if it maintains that warmongering should be the most effective strategy for any victory condition right?

That I believe is where our difference in opinion begins and any conversation stemming from this difference is not going to get anywhere. My objective at the end of the day is to present the fact that war isn't always the best way and there should be other options in the game that are equally effective.

You have time and again claimed that historicity supports the contrary, so I posit to you this: You claim that warmongering should be the most powerful strategy because it is "historic". Fine. Then I shall also make the claim that all major warmongering empires in History crumbled. I will also claim that history has shown peaceful collaboration to yield maximal results. Whose claim should be represented in the game on the basis of historicity?

I agree there are costs and risks and that is what I am trying to address. But there were also benefits and that part cannot be ignored.
Certainly there are exceptions throughout history, but most of the rebellions the Romans faced were not from 'peoples' seeking 'freedom' in some idealistic way. Such things were mostly led by opportunists who believed they saw a chance to slice off a piece of the empire for themselves. Sometimes it was foederati who revolted because payments from Rome became slow or stopped.

That is besides the point which is that rebellions and internal strife happens invariably in all empires and those empires are invariably acquired through conquest. I was not trying to prove they were wars of freedom. I was proving that managing a large warmongering empire has huge costs and risks which are not reflected in Civ 6.

Because such a cost is is not included in Civ 6, there should be some other way to impose that cost. My method is the simplest and most efficient way to compensate the lack of that cost (not replicate that cost)because it directly nullifies the excess advantage of warmongering. City yields are a very abstract concept that cannot be measured in real life. There's no such things as culture per turn etc. What gives you the logical basis to say it's not "historic" to penalize those yields when those do not even exist in real life? Also, It is well understood that occupation lowers productivity and creativity it's not an exception like you claim it to be.

Never mind whether it is historic or not. Do you realize that even if we are to penalize captured city yields to 50%, it is still a benefit that is unsurpassed by any other option in the game? Do you understand how overpowered that is?

If you disagree with my measures that pin-point the root of the issue, then how do you propose, that in the game of Civ 6 where the number of cities makes all the difference, to make other strategies more viable? That is my greatest issue with your viewpoint because you do not present equally viable ways to the prosperity and progress of civilization apart from warmongering, yet you refuse to agree that warmongering should be penalized in a manner that directly affects its profitability. The inevitable result of that viewpoint is that the negative status quo is maintained and it would appear to me that you would rather have the status quo than see an emergence of variety in strategic options because of your perceived historicity of mechanics.

At the end of the day, so long as other strategies become equally competitive to warmongering I'm all for it, whatever you may suggest. If you disagree on that then there really is nothing left to discuss, except maybe what war games you should play instead because Civ 6 certainly isn't one.
 
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I was proving that managing a large warmongering empire has huge costs and risks which are not reflected in Civ 6.

Because such a cost is is not included in Civ 6, there should be some other way to impose that cost.

I agree that there are costs and risks to managing large empires. These costs and risks can be experienced by smaller states as well. I also acknowledged that Civ6 does not currently address these challenges in any meaningful way. I then offered suggestions on how to implement just some of these challenges in game that reflect historic precedent to some degree.

If you disagree with my measures that pin-point the root of the issue, then how do you propose, that in the game of Civ 6 where the number of cities makes all the difference, to make other strategies more viable?

While there are definite and even severe challenges to holding together a large empire, you cannot deny that there are advantages to large empires as well, if it can be achieved.

Each dynamic has two sides and both sides need to be reflected in cost and benefit. You want the benefits of peaceful collaboration to be better highlighted and reflected and thats fine, but you haven't offered any suggestions as to how to accomplish this beyond 'nerfing' the huge advantage to warmongering as you see it. Look back in history, pick the examples of what you want to see in game and design a game mechanic around that.

If you disagree on that then there really is nothing left to discuss, except maybe what war games you should play instead because Civ 6 certainly isn't one.

I hardly consider Civilization6 to be a war game at all. I see it more as a simulation, albeit a competitive one. War games have more comprehensive victory conditions and involve far greater understanding of battlefield logistics, strategies and tactics. Also, war games generally reflect a very narrow beginning and end, as well a narrow scope of the conflict. War is a part of Civilization6, but not everything. At least not in my mind.

After some 1500 hours of playing Civ6, I would say that the majority of my playthroughs have been peaceful. Its what I prefer. I have achieved a number of Science and Culture victories without going to war at all. I didn't even conquer City States, but always tried to gain suzerainty over all of them. I did manage some Religious victories, but in my mind they are not really 'peaceful'. I have organized my civilizations in various ways depending on what I felt like experimenting with at the time. I didn't always achieve the official victory condition, nor is there anything speedy about it, but more often than not I still achieved the highest score.

So I reject the notion that I should be playing a different game when this game suits my peaceful proclivities just fine.
 
I see zero evidence or trends that would suggest that RaF will fix the most glaring issues with the game.

It's been a while since I've played again. Does unit cycling actually work now?
 
Rulers that conquered care only about two things: Wealth and Glory. Not infrastructure. And infrastructure is the main reward of warmongering in Civ 6. Remember what happened to most of the Ancient Wonders? All razed to the ground. Remember why the Mongols/Huns were so feared? They razed countless cities. If you want to claim the high ground of historicity, do a fairer job please. If they could get the wealth by killing people instead of ruling over them, they would do it.

Why? There are huge administrative costs and risks associated with ruling a huge empire and foreign peoples. A cost not seen in Civ 6. Remember why Rome fell apart again? Why don't we see that happening in Civ 6?



Tell that to the Jews at Masada, or Romans who constantly had to deal with rebellions. Why did the Mongol empire fall apart again?



You can't pretend to acknowledge something and then take it back with the other hand you know. How do you propose this fact be implemented in a way that adds a proper price tag to warmongering?



Complex statement with unbridled profitability of warmongering assumed to be a historical fact when it obviously isn't. You want historicity? Have all major warmongering empires crumble at some point of time.You can't claim that warmongering is so beneficial but then reject what happens to those Civilizations after that. Two sides of the same coin.

Perhaps you would like to single out which part of administrative costs, corruption, and rebellion that results in empires falling apart is "unrealistic."



From a balance perspective because warmongering is overly rewarding it needs to be overly nerfed in order to make room for other strategies. If at the end of the day the player still gets free cities more efficiently than building them or if warmongering is always better than any form of diplomacy and peaceful collaboration than any of those measures you mentioned is simply lip service. See the warmongering penalties now? That's a perfect example of lip service. Is that the kind of restrictions you are talking about?


I love the way every Civ game begins. Telling the story of the leader and people. Then it says can YOU lead your people. So maybe your better than the Ceasers of Rome or the Monguls etc. If so..

Build a civilization that will stand the test of time!!! :king:

In the end it's just a super fun game.
 
I personally have my doubts as well. At first, simply because many of us think different about what should be fixed *first*. ;)

To me the most important things to fix are:
1. AI-Behave (= the joint wars, trading, silly movement/(non)attacking even if possible);
2. fully working Map Editor (it was promised loooong time ago around the release but still is missing),
3. crash/hanging while I leave the game. It was there since the release and still happens. There are threads around in the forums for about a year now, and i DO feel this really should get high priority. But no sign about they even noticed.

Others might wight different things higher, for example the UI. Anyway, I doubt they will do any of my 3 small points. Maybe #1 will be touched, but hardly fixed.
 
It would be nice if they fixed the map builder interface so the game would load custom maps on demand.
 
If only they did! :lol:

Veery funny. The point in the real world is maybe that since ~2000 years we're basically stuck with outdated republic/dictatorships. We're something like ~information age in the science tree & classical era in the civics tree. And no, "democracy", "communism" & "facism" are not "advanced forms of government".
 
In my last game I’ve had the AI declare war at least 5 times at me even though they are friendly at me because of the joint war. AI will trade joint wars constantly regardless relationship or military strength. I’ve had sythia declare war on me with horseman while I have infantry. Civs who on the other side of the map declare war on me for a joint war. It doesn’t make any sense.

While the AI is rather trigger happy with Joint War, it does have some sort of tolerance / algorithm which it checks.

Normally, it is just ONE of the two AI's which is the instigator. If that one instigator is getting enough out of trade with you (either luxuries or GPT), then they WON'T do a joint war against you.

You can observe this behavior by loading to a turn right before the Joint War. Do a trade where you offer lots of luxuries and GPT to one of the AI's. You may need to test to see which one will result in no joint war any more. This doesn't always work but it often does. Obviously, in a normal game you can't just go back and do this, but it reveals insights on how the AI calculates its willingness to do joint wars.

I'm more disturbed that Firaxis is deciding to wait so long to fix the starting location bug introduced by the last patch, where civs start right next to each other.
 
While the AI is rather trigger happy with Joint War, it does have some sort of tolerance / algorithm which it checks.

Normally, it is just ONE of the two AI's which is the instigator. If that one instigator is getting enough out of trade with you (either luxuries or GPT), then they WON'T do a joint war against you.

You can observe this behavior by loading to a turn right before the Joint War. Do a trade where you offer lots of luxuries and GPT to one of the AI's. You may need to test to see which one will result in no joint war any more. This doesn't always work but it often does. Obviously, in a normal game you can't just go back and do this, but it reveals insights on how the AI calculates its willingness to do joint wars.

I'm more disturbed that Firaxis is deciding to wait so long to fix the starting location bug introduced by the last patch, where civs start right next to each other.

they should take relationship positve modifiers take into account for deciding a war or not.

i've had Ai who i've been ally and friendship with declare war on me (joint war)the moment our friendship ands and then ask for peace and ask for a friendship again
 
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