Will the game allow both "wide" and "tall" playstyles to work?

Wardog

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I will be disappointed if the game punishes the player for conquering enemy cities and for having a huge empire. I'm aware, however, some people prefer the "tall" playstyle.

Is there already any information about how VII will be dealing with it?
 
I will be disappointed if the game punishes the player for conquering enemy cities and for having a huge empire. I'm aware, however, some people prefer the "tall" playstyle.

Is there already any information about how VII will be dealing with it?
If you’re empire is too big for your Age & Civics (Settlement cap that goes up through Ages) then you will have happiness penalties.

under the cap it seems no penalties though.

And lots of rewards for a big city as well
 
I will be disappointed if the game punishes the player for conquering enemy cities and for having a huge empire. I'm aware, however, some people prefer the "tall" playstyle.

The devs say that both playstyles are doable in civ7.

Is there already any information about how VII will be dealing with it?

Yes. Civ7 brings back specialists to boost tall cities. Also, civ7 splits settlements into towns and cities. Towns can be specialized and send their food to cities. So you can play a tall style with a small number cities that grow big thanks to food from neighboring towns. On the flip side, you can expand wide and have lots of towns or lots of cities. But you need to watch your happiness. If you go above your settlement cap, you will get a happiness penalty to prevent excessive city spam. But it is a soft cap. So you can go above, you just get more unhappiness. There are lots of buildings, wonders etc that boost your happiness. So as long as you have high happiness, you can keep expanding. You can also raise the settlement cap through civics. So it is possible to play wide, you just need to be more careful and deliberate. You cannot just spam cities too fast.
 
I believe at one point we were told the Expansionist attribute path essentially has two routes, one focused on tall and the other on wide. To be honest, if that's the case I wouldn't be shocked if Expansionist becomes a bit of a meta pick every game, as I imagine every player will desire one of the two specialisations.
 
I believe at one point we were told the Expansionist attribute path essentially has two routes, one focused on tall and the other on wide. To be honest, if that's the case I wouldn't be shocked if Expansionist becomes a bit of a meta pick every game, as I imagine every player will desire one of the two specialisations.
Yes, here is the screenshot from the Attributes thread:

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Both are doable and seems viable. Albeit a caveat is that in this game it seems like tall and wide both become more similar in that you need to have an similar number of settlements for both, the difference being that tall you have more towns feeding on a small number of cities that will grow to become very big, while wide you have more cities that won't be as big as they don't have that many towns feeding them.
 
I believe both will be viable in Civ 7, with civs/leaders leaning towards one or another. Im sure there will be some balance issues with it, but hopefully with enough time its evened out. I wasnt a fan of Civ 5s almost forcing taller play while 6 was the opposite.
 
I do worry a tad that whether you intend to play "wide" or "tall," you'll still want to control as much land as possible under the settlement cap.
 
The devs say that both playstyles are doable in civ7.



Yes. Civ7 brings back specialists to boost tall cities. Also, civ7 splits settlements into towns and cities. Towns can be specialized and send their food to cities. So you can play a tall style with a small number cities that grow big thanks to food from neighboring towns. On the flip side, you can expand wide and have lots of towns or lots of cities. But you need to watch your happiness. If you go above your settlement cap, you will get a happiness penalty to prevent excessive city spam. But it is a soft cap. So you can go above, you just get more unhappiness. There are lots of buildings, wonders etc that boost your happiness. So as long as you have high happiness, you can keep expanding. You can also raise the settlement cap through civics. So it is possible to play wide, you just need to be more careful and deliberate. You cannot just spam cities too fast.
I think Civ 6 had specialists right? I literally never used them in the game
 
I think Civ 6 had specialists right? I literally never used them in the game
They really didn't matter in Civ 6 unless you were Sejong heading into an Era transition because they had low yields that didn't make up the loss of food or production. We'll see if the ability to collect food from nearby towns instead and their increased power relating to adjacencies will make them more relevant (I certainly hope so)
 
I do worry a tad that whether you intend to play "wide" or "tall," you'll still want to control as much land as possible under the settlement cap.
I think that is intended
More land= good if (under cap)
…however, how good that land is depends on how much you invest

Towns require $ to get buildings up or to become cities

All settlements under cap are good, but the yield they give may not be worthwhile compared to taking that same $ and investing it in more buildings for your big cities (which already have a few towns feeding them, so an additional one doesn’t help that much)

We also don’t know about the possible downsides of conquered settlements…so

1. Settling under the cap will pay off. but maybe not fast enough
2. Conquering under the cap…May pay off…but maybe not
 
The way I see it, there are 4 playstyles possible in this system: the first two are the intended tall and wide, with the intended tall being the few-cities-many-towns scenario, and the intended wide the reverse - many-cities-few-towns. The question I think about is whether the other 2 I can think of are in any way viable:
3. The unintended ultrawide. Some cities + very many towns, so going over the settlement cap immensely, with the towns basically not growing without the use of gold, as only the cities with high happines yields will be able to remain satisfied (and I can imagine it working with like 13/8 settlement limit, with natural growth eviscerated in the towns, but the cities being able to sustain themselves despite the -25 happines penalty). This way you may be getting A LOT of gold from town production and treasure fleets but few celebrations.
4. The unintended ultra-tall. Few cities with few to no towns, so going under the settlement cap. I have no idea whether it's viable outside of challenge runs and civs with abilities and legacies (we've seen an age transition card giving a bonus in exchange for about -2 settlement limit) lowering the settlement cap. Frankly, I think that this kind of tall, resembling the classic way of playing tall in Civ V may be suboptimal in most scenarios.

I will be trying strategy nr 3 very early!
 
I think I'd label the different playstyles as wide/tall referring to settlement amount, with the 2 real choices being whether to stay at the settlement limit(to farm celebrations) or to go above it, and then there is Centralized/Decentralized where you choose your ratio of cities/towns, with more cities being more decentralized.
Also I don't really see a scenario where you would want to deliberately be below your settlement limit, unless you're really low on happiness, and can't even afford the unhappiness that would come from the population of a new settlement. I expect this to only happen if they still have war wariness in civ 7.
Between Centralized Tall, Centralized Wide, Decentralized Tall, and Decentralized Wide, I'm looking most forward to Centralized Wide, which would fit well with Rome, where you would have a few megacities and lots of low maintenance towns.
 
I think I'd label the different playstyles as wide/tall referring to settlement amount, with the 2 real choices being whether to stay at the settlement limit(to farm celebrations) or to go above it.

I suspect the optimal strategy might be to stay just above the settlement limit so as to get the benefits of extra settlements with minimal penalty to happiness. I do think having as much happiness as possible through buildings, wonders etc will be important because if you can have both a lot of settlements AND frequent celebrations, you will get even higher yields.
 
Out of 4 theoretical combinations of the City-Town system, only 2 are relevant on a closer look, so that the established Tall-Wide Dichotomy more or less stays the same.
But first I've to emphasise that in the new framework fully utilising your settlement cap is always beneficial. Because they're no workers anymore and border expansion happens automatically with growth events, Towns cost you only the initial Settler, while being practically micro-management free. They grant Resources, Gold for your Empire and Food for your Cities, while denying the land to your Enemies and creating a defensible Buffer to your core. (e.g. Walling a Town center on Hills in a Plain and stationing 1 Ranged Unit therein.)

With this in mind, the 4 theoretical combinations are:
I. Staying within the given settlement cap. Low share of Cities, high share of Towns.
II. Staying within the given settlement cap. High share of Cities, low share of Towns.
III. Expanding/going over the settlement cap. Low share of Cities, high share of Towns.
IV. Expanding/going over the settlement cap. High share of Cities, low share of Towns.

Despite Cities having more building options and more Production (Towns inefficiently converting it to Gold and having also only fewer purcheasing options) I and II are practically the same. Why? Well what is keeping you from converting all your Towns into Cities right away if they're so much better? Answer: 1. Strongly increasing Gold cost per conversion. 2. All Cities but your Old Capital get degraded to Towns in a Age transition, with all Building adjacencies being erased.

Now (1.) simply means that the marginal benefit of an additional City decreases. You're paying a large sum of Gold upfront to gain additional local production (and have more building options). This lends to the observation that Towns aren't that bad after all on a second look. Your local production is only worth something after you build sth. (let's say a yield-generating building), while in Towns you immediatly and constantly gain Gold, which you can store, use globally and with full flexibility. Also the Basic Growth-Focus of a Town (+50% growth) and many Specializations (like Farming/Fishing) are quite strong and cost-free bonuses. Furthermore the less production a Town has (e.g. being in a plains/coastal position) the less benefit generated from converting it to a City. Additionaly given restrains in land mass vs. your enemies you can efficiently and without much disadvantages settle marginal positions between/ on the edge of your current Settlements with Towns. (E.g. A coastal position with merely 2-3 land tiles for Quartes becoming a Food behemoth with +5 Fishing Boats for no cost.) So the main reason then for creating Cities is mostly the second aspect, to utilize a broader range of beneficial building options.

And speaking of buildings, this (2.) fact makes them be less worth than in previous iterations and as such also devalues the main benefit of more Cities, while in addition it makes the increasing Gold cost even more punishing because you've to re-upgrade a much greater number of Towns each Age. As a tall player you want to fortify your postion by focusing on Age-constant yields (or even Age-increasing yields), which are UQ/UI, Great Works, Specialists and Wonders. The importance of Wonders alone make the concentration of production in 1-2 Cities relatively more important then more total production across a higher number of Cities. (Yes on the other hand more Cities mean more UQ's. UI's can also be prucheased in Towns.)
Now with the addition of Specialists, which generate Science/Culture yields and copy 1/2 of present adjacency yields, there is introduced a further balancing between --> More Cities, More (of the same) yield-generating Buildings and --> Feeding Cities for Specialists. As the former option becomes marginally more unattractive, while the latter stays constant and is a perfect fit for a City-Town combo, we can expect to see in practice a fusion of I and II to a common tall strategy of having a continuum of reasonable City/Town shares, with the expected tendency of increasing City shares probabably canceled out by the automatic increase of the settlement cap each Age (see further below). So
--> Tall: Staying within the given settlement cap. Roughly constant (/Increasing) share of Cities over the Ages.

Regarding III and IV, it is immediatly clear that IV is nonsense on account of the Happiness mechanic. Playing ultra-wide you want to 1.Keep your global Happiness above zero and 2. Keep your local Happiness in your key Cities above zero. It's pretty evident that (2.) can be far easier achieved in few selected great Cities, then in a larger and possibly expanding set of smaller Cities. (Especially keeping Age Transition in mind) For playing wide generally another facet comes into play: Better City Specialization. With more Towns you can cost-efficiently generate with ease vast amounts of Food (and Gold), so you don't need to build these building types in your few cities, but instead concentrate more on Science/Culture/Production and Specialists. So
--> (Ultra-)Wide: Expanding/Going over the settlement cap. Low share of Cities, high (and increasing) share of Towns over the Ages.
Wide: Expanding the settlement cap (/going over the settlement cap a bit). Roughly constant share of Cities over the Ages.

Now this on it's own puts the tall player in a difficult position against a "normal" wide player. The latter has the same options, but more benefits than the former. Here the very strong leader attributes come into play, with fantastic bonuses to Towns and Specialists respectivly (e.g. +15/30% to all Yields, Maintance reduction). Civ selection plays also a part, with most Civilizations already roughly divided into the tall/wide dichotomy, usually by their abilities and number of unique Civics with settlement cap increases.
E.g. Rome, Persia +2 | Egypt, Greece, Han, Maurya, Maya, Missipian +1 | Aksum, Khmer +0

But we've to keep in mind that the practical differences will probably be not so stark, as the settlement cap is reset to a new basis every Age! So e.g. Khmer having a cap of 5 at the end of Antiquity nevertheless translates to a starting cap of 8 for Majapahit at the start of the Exploration Age. ( Exploration Civics increasing this +2 for a end cap of 10, with no cap increasing unique civics for Majapahit) So these Civ-Specific caps affect mostly intra-Age Gameplay strategy, but can also be used for dynamic transitions. E.g. especially the combination of a tall Civ in Antiquity which "blossoms out" into a wide Exploration Civ, to exploit the DL bonuses to a maximum, seems interesting. (With a side view to the Leader Attribute trees Culture/Expansion) Well this got longer then planned...
 
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It's clear that this is all much richer and more interesting than the settlement strategy in VI, which I think can be fairly called "all the settlers, all the time". VI was more about timing your settler spams to coincide with specific policies / governor promotions etc.
 
Pick an expansionist leader and pair them with an Expansionist Civ across all three ages, and you should be able to go Tall and Wide (but it may take until the Modern Age until you can go full ham on city spamming)
 
I will be disappointed if the game punishes the player for conquering enemy cities and for having a huge empire. I'm aware, however, some people prefer the "tall" playstyle.

Is there already any information about how VII will be dealing with it?
Honestly it really depends on how easy it will be to get happiness. If you can can garuntee each settlement can build a happiness building and aquire a resource maybe it won't be so punitive. I hope their is a distinction between cities and towns when it comes to how they're penalized
 
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