Will the patch nerf Tradition?

[insaneweasel]

Even though a lot of changes are great, I think that tradition will not be nearly as powerful.

Examples:

Tradition...
-Aristocracy now provides +15% Production when building Wonders down from 20%.
I remember when this came out it was a decent 33%. Then it was 25%, then it was 20%. Two more patches it may be 1%. Each change makes taking it a little less appealing.


-Landed Elite now provides 1 Happiness at every 10 Citizens in each City.
It used to be a wonderful 2 food and 15% growth for each city, but now it seems a lot worse. Early game it's weak, as you shouldn't have more than 30-40 citizens. Late game you have much better options to choose from.

Combined with weak choices like oligarchy (I haven't seen many people take it) and monarchy, I don't see tradition as being nearly as powerful now.

This just the opinion of an amateur who doesn't play that often. I may be very wrong in my assessment, but I think this is a reasonable assessment.

 

[Gali]

Well Monarchy got a slight buff. It never stacked with theocracy and now thats not an issue. With tall cities being harder to take under new rules, its value increases further by allowing a tall capital.

For Oligarchy the boost to honor and military caste in particular, along with an emphasis on more cities, make it more valuable. More cities with more useful garrison's equals more money saved by oligarchy. Especially if they fix its bug.

Decreased early policy costs make the tradition and legalism culture bonuses more useful. Now that monuments and temples can easily be happy buildings too, and are thus more valuable, free versions are stronger. With delayed expansion a free monument on settling can equal a point of happy to offset growth.

PS. Besides if the Hanging Garden boosted capital gains ground monarchy is even more useful to offset that pop and gain some gold. Tradition was nerfed in the end but not as badly as it would appear. For certain civs, especially Egypt, its still incredibly powerful.

 

[GenjiKhan]

I think these changes are to prevent players to exploit the food bonus of Tradition Branch,that should go to tall empires,instead wide empires. I just think they should change the bonus of landed elite,because that happiness bonus is very weak,even to tall empires(maybe this bonus prevent players to fill Tradition Branch just to expand after). Beside, Tradition was made to be a strong option to tall empires,not to wide/conqueror empires.

 

[LostInTime]

Combined with weak choices like oligarchy

This can be the difference between survival and defeat on higher levels when you get rushed. Also very good combined with the military garrison happy from honor.
(rush buy/build scouts all over the place, no maintenace +1 happy) If you are never threatened, of course it's sub par, but once you are it's a very good choice to have.

My latest games I've fixed most of my happy issues this way instead of going into theocracy. Discipline is awesome

 

[Furycrab]

Later game oligarchy ends up being fairly ridiculous in peace times.

Units eventually end up costing 4-5 gpt each so if you have 5-10 cities, that's 50gpt of army you can have readily available at no cost. Early game the ranged attack bonus is really nice. I think people often underestimate how much gold this represents (or don't realize that when your workers are upgrading the 50th tiles cities will likely never use, you should delete them, lots of them since the cost of each of them will never be compensated by them working really poor tiles)

Oh and that said, I would love if they changed a little the formula so workers late game didn't cost 3-5 gpt each. They don't magically start flying around the map working super quickly so why should they cost like they do.

 

[RealHuhn]

And don't forget that the finisher policy still is +2 food/+15% growth.

It highly depends on the new culture costs of early policies but maybe we can get the tradition finisher almost as fast as the old landed elite.

Although I agree, Liberty and Honor do look better.

 

[bryanw1995]

They have simply made tradition fit better with tall empires now. Think about it, a 3-4 city empire with lots of maritime food should have ~ 40% of it's population in the capital, so that's like having theocracy for a tall empire/cultural victory path. Plus it's reasonable now for that same empire to take honor/piety as well, likely garnering much more overall than using the current SP's. On the flip side, having to take several nearly-useless policies just to get the +2 food/+15% for a very wide empire is likely to push you more towards filling out liberty then possibly honor.

 

[Randall Turner]

Realistically, that (filling out tradition) is not going to happen. Oligarchy plus Military Caste is good, but the Great Person on Liberty is going to suck up all our SP choices, we're just going to run out of picks.

Edit: to be clear, I'm agreeing w/you.

 

[Furycrab]

Realistically, that (filling out tradition) is not going to happen. Oligarchy plus Military Caste is good, but the Great Person on Liberty is going to suck up all our SP choices, we're just going to run out of picks.

Edit: to be clear, I'm agreeing w/you.

In my current play style I don't like liberty when the GP is 3 policies deep unless I'm going for a clear rush. I don't see how putting the GP 6 policies deep will make it any more tempting then Tradition/Honor for me, if anything the patch makes tradition/honor more interesting since there isn't an obvious rush that leads me to a dominating mid game.

 

[Randall Turner]

It's all about the Porcelain Tower. We'll generally have six policies right around education.

If we can dependably get the Porcelain Tower some other way, Liberty finisher is less attractive.

If we are certain that the Porcelain Tower is out of reach (tech lagging badly), likewise.

Most games, most civs, it falls in the "doable with great person" range.

Edit: I think sacrificing everything you have is appropriate for the Tower. Your single Great General for a Golden Age (you usually have one by then) if it helps, double-popping Great Engineers (one to get Hagia Sophia and block the AI from it, then the Hagia Sophia's GE for the Tower), basically anything that'll help. (A Golden Age will help some via either building available libraries or available monastaries & temples, and/or more cash for signing early RA's for help with Theology, Civil Service and Education itself), anything.

 

[Tabarnak]

With Oligarchy fixed, i will certainly pick it for multiplayer games. Ranged attacks will be efficient against longswordmen(nerfed). With Tradition fully taken, the +2 food and 15% will be back. But my question is how much more turns than pre-patch i need to get the food bonus?

 

[Hustapha Thool]

In my current play style I don't like liberty when the GP is 3 policies deep unless I'm going for a clear rush. I don't see how putting the GP 6 policies deep will make it any more tempting then Tradition/Honor for me, if anything the patch makes tradition/honor more interesting since there isn't an obvious rush that leads me to a dominating mid game.

Agree on all points on this one, about the only time I will take Liberty at present is if a specifically want to go for the Colossus or maybe even Great Lighthouse both very dependent on the map i draw.

 

[The_Quasar]

It's all about the Porcelain Tower. We'll generally have six policies right around education.

If we can dependably get the Porcelain Tower some other way, Liberty finisher is less attractive.

If we are certain that the Porcelain Tower is out of reach (tech lagging badly), likewise.

Most games, most civs, it falls in the "doable with great person" range.

Edit: I think sacrificing everything you have is appropriate for the Tower. Your single Great General for a Golden Age (you usually have one by then) if it helps, double-popping Great Engineers (one to get Hagia Sophia and block the AI from it, then the Hagia Sophia's GE for the Tower), basically anything that'll help. (A Golden Age will help some via either building available libraries or available monastaries & temples, and/or more cash for signing early RA's for help with Theology, Civil Service and Education itself), anything.

Unfortunately, you're right... imho it is not a good situation when so much hangs on the one Wonder... there should be at least one alternative.

Have they have nerfed the National College start, in order to create the more complicated Porcelain Tower start?

 

[CYZ]

My prediction: Porcelain tower will be nerfed the patch after this one.

 

[He-Who-Hunts]

they could change Oxford university bonus to the Porcelain tower's, that way everyone gets a shot at it.

Maybe make the Porcelain tower give 10 science or something to the city it is built in.

 

[ColinTH]

If we can dependably get the Porcelain Tower some other way, Liberty finisher is less attractive.

I agree, I just don't see where the Hagia Sofia Engineer is coming from without the Liberty finisher. If there is an option, I am sure someone will find it, if not we are going to need alot of hammer production tiles!

 

[Randall Turner]

I agree, I just don't see where the Hagia Sofia Engineer is coming from without the Liberty finisher. If there is an option, I am sure someone will find it, if not we are going to need alot of hammer production tiles!

I foresee myself re-rolling the initial setup for Marble.

The key to slow-building any Wonder is tech lead, though. I don't see any dependable way to get one early, and then it's the whole monkeys-writing-Shakespeare thing - some AI civ will do things "right" and get there first unless we're playing a dedicated science civ like Babylon.

 

[ColinTH]

I foresee myself re-rolling the initial setup for Marble.

The key to slow-building any Wonder is tech lead, though. I don't see any dependable way to get one early, and then it's the whole monkeys-writing-Shakespeare thing - some AI civ will do things "right" and get there first unless we're playing a dedicated science civ like Babylon.

I was also thinking Babylon might be the way forward, it would atleast get you to the Hagia Sofia quicker, essentially giving you more time to build it. I do like your marble idea, it could make all the difference.

EDIT
To the op, sorry if this and other posts don't seem to be much in topic, but infact they are, I have in the past allways used tradition from the offset, I imagine I will still be using it but not from the start. I agree with you on landed elite, I just can't imagine what future games will be like without this early policy! On the subject of Oligarchy, just having it saved me from an early demise many a time.