Will there be Cheap Shots tactics in Civ6?

[ExemplarVoss]

I really like this. A reason NOT to advance science!

Well, keep in mind its only the war declaration. If you go on a spree capturing or worse, razing, cities, you'll get warmonger penalties for that. Or rather, for each.

But as Marbozir pointed out, you risk losing it all if someone else snipes Big Ben on the next turn. Maybe not a huge risk, but non-zero probability.

Are you feeling lucky?

Pretty lucky. They may well be more likely at higher difficulty with all the bonus resources, but the prereqs for a lot of the wonders (e.g., must be adjacent to river, commercial district which also has a bank, and possibly also flat land) seems to put the AI off. Some of them just aren't possible if the conditions aren't just right. Such as, oddly, Stonehenge, which must have stone adjacent. So sometimes they sit around for ages with no building them. And they can break up district or farm triangles, so you don't want to actually put them down in the one tile you can.

That means the wonder timers that Civ 5 experts will be used to (turn 50 on deity? No point in even trying for the great library) may not even apply this time around.

 

[dturtle1]

Another cheap strategy in Civ6 if you get a coastal start seems to be Sailing - Shipbuilding - Cartography - Square Rigging (yes, that brings you into late Renaissance era with only 4 techs, lol). In the preview build, Frigates absolutely destroys everything around them. See the Yogscast Norway plays (episode 9 and episode 10) for some rather ridiculous examples of this.

That was is pretty ridiculous the Tech tree does seem to have issues, though it is an easy fix....Make Cartography require Education....solved. I doubt that will be in the game at release, or will be the first to be patched.

 

[God of Kings]

It makes sense for Cartography to require both Shipbuilding and Education.

Good cartographers need to know mathematics. There is more to cartography than drawing maps. Cartography is an art.

 

[stealth_nsk]

That was is pretty ridiculous the Tech tree does seem to have issues, though it is an easy fix....Make Cartography require Education....solved. I doubt that will be in the game at release, or will be the first to be patched.

Maybe because these are actually aren't issues? I'm pretty sure the game had many times more playtesting on different difficulty levels than we've seen in LP. We need to actually play the game for about a month to see how it actually goes.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That was is pretty ridiculous the Tech tree does seem to have issues, though it is an easy fix....Make Cartography require Education....solved. I doubt that will be in the game at release, or will be the first to be patched.

Beelines are not necessarily an issue. Indeed with Eurekas they Want to have beelines. (Just because it worked well on Prince doesn't mean it will be practical)

 

[dturtle1]

OMG.... you guys arent seriously saying going from Ancient Era to Industrial Era in 4 techs is fine are you ? Literally 4 techs. I dont care that is Prince, having Frigates @ turn 93, is broken. I dont care that the Yogcast boys 2 Shot a city with walls with one Frigate, I care that running around with Frigates barely out of the Classical Era is friggin ridiculous.

 

[stealth_nsk]

OMG.... you guys arent seriously saying going from Ancient Era to Industrial Era in 4 techs is fine are you ? Literally 4 techs. I dont care that is Prince, having Frigates @ turn 93, is broken. I dont care that the Yogcast boys 2 Shot a city with walls with one Frigate, I care that running around with Frigates barely out of the Classical Era is friggin ridiculous.

Why do you think it's broken? Yes, you get very strong naval ranged unit and could devastate everything from the shore. But:
- You have to beeline expensive techs without eurekas, which means your overall progression through tech tree is slower.
- This also means you're way behind in other areas. Just for understanding - you'll have no access to any districts and any buildings other than Monument while other players are in Medieval. No land units other than Warriors and Slingers.
You need some very specific conditions to win in this situation.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It depends

OMG.... you guys arent seriously saying going from Ancient Era to Industrial Era in 4 techs is fine are you ? Literally 4 techs. I dont care that is Prince, having Frigates @ turn 93, is broken. I dont care that the Yogcast boys 2 Shot a city with walls with one Frigate, I care that running around with Frigates barely out of the Classical Era is friggin ridiculous.

it depends on how expensive those 4 techs are
Number of techs is irrelevant
Cost of techs is relevant

 

[Jaybe]

If you beeline to some advanced technology and it wins you the game I'm glad for you. I will not be sympathetic when you then start complaining about your not enjoying the game.

 

[dturtle1]

Naval Eurekas are got with naval techs. own 2 triremes...easily, To get cartography Eureka you need 2 extra techs...which you will want anyway because they give you Harbours. But lets say you straight beeline.
According to Well of Souls Tech Tree, after Sailing it costs a total of 43 turns without any Eurekas, That is assuming you dont increase your science at all. It takes 4 Techs !!!
Eurekas to get to Square Rigging are easy, except for Square Rigging Itself which requires another 7 techs beelined to unlock the Tech for.

hmm Tech tree on Well of Souls is bjorked ... Education, castles and Military engineering all costs way more than they should. The Early Renaissance techs cost less than the Early medieval techs, late Medieval techs are more expensive than Industrial Techs., Obviously some cut'n'pasta is going on.

Lets compare number of techs then shall we:
Beelining Square Rigging takes: 4 Techs
beelining Astronomy takes: 7 Techs
Beelining Metal casting takes: 8 Techs
Beelining Siege tactics takes: 5 techs

Massive discrepancies, aren't there. Unless Naval techs cost twice as much as the Central Lines then we are going to have a problem and according to the Tech Tree on Arioch Well of Souls the Naval Line is cheaper than everything else.
Both Cost and Number are both relevant, the difference in prices just aren't that big, in fact you will notice that Techs cost the same when comparing position anyway.(Early Classical, late Classical etc.)


After further study of the Tech tree, maybe Mathematics would be a better prerequisite than Education(education is expensive to get already), this gives you an 8 Tech Beeline which is comparable to the central Lines as well as actually making sense, Do you really believe you build a Frigate without knowledge of Mathematics ?
The Bottom Line is also bit lite as well Imo, but there is no real reason to Beeline it. Renaissance Walls and Fort dont really push the needle, especially when you have to tech Military Engineering to even build the Forts

You can get frigates with 4 Techs, You can get Bombards with 8 techs. Tech cost per mini era (Early Classical/Late Classical etc) is the same. Naval techs aren't naturally more expensive than other techs.
It is quite foreseeable that people will have Frigates before other players are even out of the Ancient Era. On naval Maps everyone will have frigates at 100-500 AD (the Yogcast boys got Frigates at AD 500 but they didnt beeline at all, they had campuses and holy sites and other things as well. On a Good start you could theoretically get Frigates in the BC, which is ludicrous. Think about it, Frigates... Range 2 60 str Units in the BC, how is it not broken.
By making Cartography require Mathematics you can still beeline the top of the tree but you will get Frigates when someone else who beelined the bottom military line has Bombards as an example, much more comparable

 

[stealth_nsk]

Naval Eurekas are got with naval techs. own 2 triremes...easily, To get cartography Eureka you need 2 extra techs...which you will want anyway because they give you Harbours. But lets say you straight beeline.
According to Well of Souls Tech Tree, after Sailing it costs a total of 43 turns without any Eurekas, That is assuming you dont increase your science at all. It takes 4 Techs !!!
Eurekas to get to Square Rigging are easy, except for Square Rigging Itself which requires another 7 techs beelined to unlock the Tech for.

If you beeline to Squire Rigging you'll not get eurekas for 2 later techs, because Cartography eureka requires Harbors (2 additional techs) and Squire Rigging eureka requires kills with Musketmen (generally the rest of the tech tree). So, you'll have eureka for 1 of 4 techs, and way not the most expensive. Marbozir video has exact values science (and it's more recent than leaked tech tree), so we could drop Shipbuilding cost from 200 to 100, making the total cost to be 1240 (50+100+490+600). How many turns it would take for you to get there without science buildings and wonders? Let's say your average population during this time will be 15 (a VERY optimistic number). This means 10-11 science per turn average, or more than 100 turns. Surely some things like city-states, goody huts, civilization uniques or natural wonders could improve the odds.

 

[dturtle1]

2 out of 4 mate, You get the sailing one as well. Also, you could say the same about beelining for Metalcasting, no way you get all the Eureka's as well.
Could u please explain to me the rationality of Squared Rigging taking 4 techs to beeline and Metal casting taking 8 ? Considering they unlock fairly comparable units.I am not even saying that 4 tech beeline is even optimum. I am saying that it much too easy to get Frigates compared to comparable technology. If this stays the same at release i will have Frigates in the BC which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[stealth_nsk]

2 out of 4 mate, You get the sailing one as well. Also, you could say the same about beelining for Metalcasting, no way you get all the Eureka's as well.
Could u please explain to me the rationality of Squared Rigging taking 4 techs to beeline and Metal casting taking 8 ? Considering they unlock fairly comparable units.I am not even saying that 4 tech beeline is even optimum. I am saying that it much too easy to get Frigates compared to comparable technology. If this stays the same at release i will have Frigates in the BC which is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, I forgot about Sailing eureka. Yes, you need 1215 science, not 1240.
The real thing is - it doesn't matter how many techs are required to beeline a particular tech. Number of science is way more important AND it's still not the most important thing in the game. Overall strategy is what's matter. If you beeline to Squire Rigging, it looks like in most cases you put yourself in disadvantage, even on islands map (since islands now are quite large), because you sacrifice literally everything else and have no empire development or land military for 1/4 of the game.

 

[dturtle1]

And your missing my point. Let say you get writing first and then beeline Square Rigging, you are still going to get their a lot quicker than beelining Metal Casting. Again, It is quite forseeable for you to get Frigates around 100 AD, that is a problem, You could pick up Pottery, Writing Astrology and Celestial navigation and still outpace someone strictly beelining Metal casting(8 techs, but more earlier ones, therefore cheaper and have easier Eurekas). Sqare Rigging unlocks is too powerful for the tech required to get it, that is all.

Of course it matters how many techs you need, given you the toatal science cost. I can get Writing giving me all the science in the world and then beeline Square Sails. The real thing the Science Cost to get Frigates is a lot less than any other comparable tech.

 

[Magil]

It's fine to be optimistic, but it's also crazy to simply dismiss possible issues with empty platitudes along the lines of "it's just Prince" and "I'm sure the devs thought of that in testing".

The game is going to release with imbalanced things. The developers will not find everything. These things have been true in just about every game released in recent history, including Civ games. It is very useful to identify potential problems now so they can possibly be addressed sooner rather than later, and the amount of effort this forum spends on idly dismissing legitimate concerns is maddening.

 

[stealth_nsk]

And your missing my point. Let say you get writing first and then beeline Square Rigging, you are still going to get their a lot quicker than beelining Metal Casting. Again, It is quite forseeable for you to get Frigates around 100 AD, that is a problem, You could pick up Pottery, Writing Astrology and Celestial navigation and still outpace someone strictly beelining Metal casting(8 techs, but more earlier ones, therefore cheaper and have easier Eurekas). Sqare Rigging unlocks is too powerful for the tech required to get it, that is all.

Could you explain why you compare Squire Rigging to Metal Casting? Metal Casting is more expensive in science, but you get several times more stuff on the road.

I could make another comparison. You need only 225 science for Iron Working, 125 if you get both eurekas on the road. And that's enough to completely destroy player beelining to Squire Rigging way before the player gets Frigates.

 

[Magil]

I could make another comparison. You need only 225 science for Iron Working, 125 if you get both eurekas on the road. And that's enough to completely destroy player beelining to Squire Rigging way before the player gets Frigates.

If you add on the potential cost for getting embarkation in addition to that, then you may begin to understand why a frigate rush is potent on an island plates map (I don't think anybody is saying try it on pangea). To say nothing of somehow getting the embarked swordsmen past any galleys or quadriremes that may be in the water at the time.

Oh, and swordsmen require iron. Frigates are resource-less.

 

[dturtle1]

Because the Units provided are comparable, and you know.....They both are unlocked in the Era.
Who cares that Iron working is cheaper to get to...it should be....it is a Classical Era Tech, not late renaissance
All i see is you throwing Strawman's not actually addressing the point. Do you honestly believe that having getting 75 turn(conservative rush estimates) or Sub 300AD Frigates is actually fine and good ?
Square Sails is a late Renaissance Tech that you can get whilst the rest of the game is in Early Classical, how is that not a problem ?

 

[Leyrann]

This time I think the beeline goal is pottery-writing-currency-apprenticeship (for industrial zones and getting campus and commercial zones along the way). Meet another civ, make a trade route and build three mines are very easy eurekas (though the latter requires mining as well, but that is also quick). The downside is it advances you two eras (with 4 techs, which is downright silly), so if you want consequence free early war declarations, you don't want to do this.

Dont you need all the techs required in Civ 6 though, like in Civ 5? That would mean that, for Apprentinceship, you'd also need Horseback Riding (and therefore Animal Husbandry).

Looking at the tech tree, the one with the Sailing line does work though. Which indeed means 4 techs for late renaissance. I do think that'll mean huge tech costs near the end though, and I doubt that's worth it. Because what do you really get from advancing to the next era?

 

[stealth_nsk]

If you add on the potential cost for getting embarkation in addition to that, then you may begin to understand why a frigate rush is potent on an island plates map (I don't think anybody is saying try it on pangea). To say nothing of somehow getting the embarked swordsmen past any galleys or quadriremes that may be in the water at the time.

Oh, and swordsmen require iron. Frigates are resource-less.

Surely, on island plates map everyone should get Shipbuilding very early (although not necessary belline). However, that's only 125 science with both eurekas, compared to 1215 science to reach Squire Rigging with the same eurekas. This means you could get both embarkation AND srordsmen for 1/5 of the Squire Rigging science.
Alternatively, if you don't want to rely on Iron, you could beeline Military Tactics and Shipbuilding getting embarked Pikemen for still 1/2 of the Squire Rigging tech cost, plus getting things like Campus and Commercial District along the way.

Even on Island Plates there are tonns of possibilities how to spend this huge pack of science effectively. Although I agree, in some cases beelining to Frigates on sea-based maps could be worth it, but it's surely doesn't look imbalanced.

EDIT:

And just as some rough planning. Consider what:
- Pottery and Writing will unlock Campus, which will surely compensate the techs spent on them.
- Astrology and Celestial Navigation together, even without eurekas, cost less than Cartography eureka you could trigger with them.
So, the most effective "beelining" for Frigates looks like 8 techs, not 4.

Finally, Frigate is 280 production and 5 gold maintenance. If you want to actually have Frigates, you need at least techs to improve resources (+2-3 techs), much better if you have Commercial hub and Industrial Zone.