Winning on Deity?

[cheffster]

So, I'm playing on Deity now, started a few games, and im not really sure if its possible to win in any of them. The basic problem is: the AI has about 4-5cities before I can get my first settler out, and on most maps settles right close to your capital or where you were planning to settle. Then teching... in my best game I missed liberalism by 2 turns to the spanish, then I gave up seeing that the ai had 10-12 cities all with pop 18 with 4-7 longbows in each one while I had just settled my fifth city and my capital was capped at size 11. I also notice some AI's will demand you give them any techs they don't already have or instantly declare war (no matter how good the relations)

I had little trouble winning consistently on Immortal for some reason, didn't find it much harder then emperor, but on Diety I'm getting smoked so far.
Is there anyone out there who can win on Diety somewhat consisently ?
if so how? I know the AI gets an obscene starting advantage (2 settlers, 3 archers, 3 workers, 2 scouts?)

I hear people saying on the HOF forums theres ways to tech trade to keep up, such as trading twice: alphabet, then liberalism...
but are there any other strats? or principles too follow that will make winning possible (and I don't mean a cheese cultural win.. I'm sure I could easily do that, ideally I'd like winning domination, but I'd settle for a space race.)

I play Inca, and I tend to ALWAYS, build oracle - grab metal casting (double production speed for forge).. then pyramids (cause the happiness cap is otherwise at size 4 w/out representation).

Anyways.. if there's anyone out there who plays diety I'd more then welcome some advice/tips

 

[axident]

So, I'm playing on Deity now, started a few games, and im not really sure if its possible to win in any of them. The basic problem is: the AI has about 4-5cities before I can get my first settler out, and on most maps settles right close to your capital or where you were planning to settle. Then teching... in my best game I missed liberalism by 2 turns to the spanish, then I gave up seeing that the ai had 10-12 cities all with pop 18 with 4-7 longbows in each one while I had just settled my fifth city and my capital was capped at size 11. I also notice some AI's will demand you give them any techs they don't already have or instantly declare war (no matter how good the relations)

I had little trouble winning consistently on Immortal for some reason, didn't find it much harder then emperor, but on Diety I'm getting smoked so far.
Is there anyone out there who can win on Diety somewhat consisently ?
if so how? I know the AI gets an obscene starting advantage (2 settlers, 3 archers, 3 workers, 2 scouts?)

I hear people saying on the HOF forums theres ways to tech trade to keep up, such as trading twice: alphabet, then liberalism...
but are there any other strats? or principles too follow that will make winning possible (and I don't mean a cheese cultural win.. I'm sure I could easily do that, ideally I'd like winning domination, but I'd settle for a space race.)

I play Inca, and I tend to ALWAYS, build oracle - grab metal casting (double production speed for forge).. then pyramids (cause the happiness cap is otherwise at size 4 w/out representation).

Anyways.. if there's anyone out there who plays diety I'd more then welcome some advice/tips

Deity not diety. There are ways. Snaaty has an active Deity game going on in the Stories and Tales subforum right now. Search for others that have been played out.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Well, I'd die fast on Deity, so it could be telling the truth...

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Here's a tip: be specific when asking about deity.

Vanilla, Warlords, or BtS?

What speed?

What world?

Barbarians on/off?

etc

 

[Ruler]

Even I'm trying to crack Immortal for a first time but have you tried Charismatic trait combined with stonehenge it really makes your life easier and gives you time to get more happiness and it's not so necessary to go on Pyramid and use those hammers for workers and settlers instead.

 

[Kennigit]

I don't think there should be a way to win consintently on deity if the game is designed right.

Snaaty's games are good to look at. Acouple HOF games might be good. IDK as I don't play deity.

But As for my advice- don't get wonders. Just don't. It'll take a lot of time and shields which I think are too valuable. REXing is crucial, and getting hereditary rule is a priority. Herediaty rule gets rid of the happy cap and gives diplomatic relations to a lot of leaders, so you can be a little safer.

Trade resources early on and try to avoid religion unless its almost unanimous (sp).

 

[alex sword]

I play BTS. It was said computer start is not so hard on Deity in this version due to so called "improved AI".

I've had good starts on Deity - early UU rush, which is especially good with Incan. Build no settlers, capture the cities instead!

On little maps, and pangea you will be able to win immediately with a bit of luck. If you play continents, large/huge as I do, you will meet a problem with computer great speed of research. I still try to find out solution. It lies somewhere in hybrid economy - next time I will try to do great people (scientists) in captured capitals while build CE im my own capital.

Main strategic choice to be made on continents - should you eraze all the neighbors during UU rush or no? Advantages - you will have the whole continent for future expansion. Disadvantage - no trading tech.

In separate thread, I discussed so called "military factory exploit" - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5842670&postcount=42. Using it, you should leave only one AI city, which you use to produce great generals and teach your catapults (I've reached 20 level one game). And the most important from trading tech standpoint - you will be able to receive from them almost all early techs. Please note, military factory is boring itself, but I think you might leave one AI city even for that purpose - get from them all early techs they have. Once again, all the above was said for continents. It is very different story with pangea.

and no wonders spam as I used to play on Monarch (which I can play almost any map and almost any leader without reloads).

 

[mudphud]

I play BTS. It was said computer start is not so hard on Deity in this version due to so called "improved AI".

I've had good starts on Deity - early UU rush, which is especially good with Incan. Build no settlers, capture the cities instead!

On little maps, and pangea you will be able to win immediately with a bit of luck. If you play continents, large/huge as I do, you will meet a problem with computer great speed of research. I still try to find out solution. It lies somewhere in hybrid economy - next time I will try to do great people (scientists) in captured capitals while build CE im my own capital.

Main strategic choice to be made on continents - should you eraze all the neighbors during UU rush or no? Advantages - you will have the whole continent for future expansion. Disadvantage - no trading tech.

In separate thread, I discussed so called "military factory exploit" - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5842670&postcount=42. Using it, you should leave only one AI city, which you use to produce great generals and teach your catapults (I've reached 20 level one game). And the most important from trading tech standpoint - you will be able to receive from them almost all early techs. Please note, military factory is boring itself, but I think you might leave one AI city even for that purpose - get from them all early techs they have. Once again, all the above was said for continents. It is very different story with pangea.

and no wonders spam as I used to play on Monarch (which I can play almost any map and almost any leader without reloads).

This post brings up the question is it possible to win on deity without resorting specific leaders for an early rush or exploits or reloads? No offense to those that use such tactics but I think many of us would not consider that a true deity victory if you have to reload or use an exploit.

Also, am I correct that the bonuses the AI receives aren't as large in BtS? Added to that the fact that AI no longer discriminates so much against the human probably adds to making deity easier not that the new AI is stupid as some people seem to think.

 

[cheffster]

Here's a tip: be specific when asking about deity.

Vanilla, Warlords, or BtS?

What speed?

What world?

Barbarians on/off?

etc

I play BTS, usually epic speed, big/small map or continents.

As far as wonders, I tend to be addicted to building them.. with the Industrial trait, the GP points, + bonuses you get from them, I tend to think I "need" those advantages to keep up with the AI.. and this strategy has worked ok on Immortal/Emperor level ( i can easily outech/produce with minerat, sankore, AP), but maybe whoever said I shouldn't worry about them is right.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Don't sacrifice more important things over wonders on deity, because the AI may just beat you. The AI may also beat you for city spots, Liberalism, etc. Be adaptable.


Here are a few good deity strategies:

UberLizzy

This HE strategy combines Lizzy's traits for lightbulbing and a cottaged bureaucratic capital plus England's excellent draftable UU. Get Liberalism and either go for cavalries (in Warlords) or redcoats (probably better in BtS). Then upgrade mounted units/draft in Globe city and conquer enough land to win the game. Obviously, you'll need at least six cities to pull it off, so either master limited ancient war as in uberfish game or learn to block AI settling as in Snaaty's games. Study:

On Warlords
uberfish report http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=200991

On BtS
Snaaty's save at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=237315. Snaaty has posted other similar deity games, some as early as vanilla.


Hatty warfare

This SE strategy is about warring early, warring in the midgame, and finally warring in the late game. It is based on early UU rushes, lightbulbing, drafting, and the unmatched SE resilience to war weariness. Spiritual was the best SE trait in Warlords, not necessarily so on BtS tho. The following games are on Warlords:

acidsatyr and team http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=196533

my own game featuring lilnev for the spaceship victory branch http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=202254


Couple of other interesting deity games:

Mutineer and team do a multibranched succession game for diplo victory (vanilla?) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192600

Cyrus imperialistic gambit of mine (Warlords) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=229303



One final tip: the devil is in the details. To successfully learn from these games, you need to notice all the minor details that separate them from regular ones. See how Snaaty's CE lookalike actually produces more GPs than most players' full SEs. Find out that acidsatyr's happy empire deals with cities of 40-50 unhappy faces under the hood. Notice not the numbers, but the year of my warchariot rush and how later saves indicate I actually passed by the first Zulu city on my way.

 

[Harbourboy]

On Deity, it is very difficult to win consistently. There are some strategies that increase your chances of winning if you get lucky with geography and AI stupidity. Playing Incans is a pretty good start as they are easily the best Deity level civ for domination type victories, especially if you play on Marathon level. Use your quechua to grab 3 or 4 nearby capitals for a huge boost and then follow the clever tech trading strategies mentioned elsewhere.

 

[alex sword]

This post brings up the question is it possible to win on deity without resorting specific leaders for an early rush or exploits or reloads?

1) Any strategy should be based on leaders, their traits and their UU. Their is no "general" effective strategy which ignore them. If UU comes early, I think, you should use it. If you play Incan, Quecha rush must be element of your strategy.

2) Reloads. Agreed. I think great deal of reloads should tell to someone that his strategy is not designed properly. Concerning quecha rush on continents - it is 100% FEASIBLE to capture 2 capitals by 2000-2500bc without reloads.

3) Military factory exploit. As I told in that topic, I am not sure if this one is exploit or not. Cats are attacking, and even if the city defenders are weak, why catapults should receive no experience? In real life, people who returned from Afganistan are much more military-experienced than ones who just played their military games in academies. I agree, however, there should be some limit though for catapult experience growth (20 level catapult is too much even for Afganistan). But even if such a restriction is introduced in future version, just replace this catapult by newbye and restart the training. This way or another, you will get some good units (maybe lower than 20 level, but higher than ones which just come out from barracks) and it will provide you with a certain advantage in real wars. Few great generals will be useful as well.

And that's how happens in real life! Vietnam and Afgan provided USA and USSR with a good deal of generals, who are very much respected in armies. And some of them are now big politician guys. So even small conflicts provide army with experience GG. So, I don't think there is an exploit in Civ.

 

[uberfish]

No one really wins at deity consistently under 'fair' settings - if an AI declares war on you early, or you get boxed in by an AI who defends your axe/sword rush strongly by spamming enough units to buy time for feudalism, you are done.

 

[Kennigit]

As far as wonders, I tend to be addicted to building them.. with the Industrial trait, the GP points, + bonuses you get from them, I tend to think I "need" those advantages to keep up with the AI.. and this strategy has worked ok on Immortal/Emperor level ( i can easily outech/produce with minerat, sankore, AP), but maybe whoever said I shouldn't worry about them is right.

To elaborate further, think about your metal casting oracle grab that you mentioned. Cheap forges adding 25% hammers doesn't do a lot of good if you have 3 small cities compared to the AI's 7+. Metal casting is a good tech and is easily traded, but its not always the best option. REXing would be more effective, getting more land for more cottages (especially w/ a financial leader), or an early rush.

 

[mudphud]

1) Any strategy should be based on leaders, their traits and their UU. Their is no "general" effective strategy which ignore them. If UU comes early, I think, you should use it. If you play Incan, Quecha rush must be element of your strategy.

I didn't mean to ignore the UU. It just seems like the most common strategy for deity is Quecha rush on a duel size pangea or some other quecha rush and restart if you don't get a couple capitals. Of course use the UU but I like to play random leaders most of the time (just my preference) so I can't plan on having an early UU. Of course I've just started to comfortable at monarch and I just started BtS so I have a long ways to go before I can even think about deity so it just amazes me that people can manage it.

3) Military factory exploit. As I told in that topic, I am not sure if this one is exploit or not. Cats are attacking, and even if the city defenders are weak, why catapults should receive no experience? In real life, people who returned from Afganistan are much more military-experienced than ones who just played their military games in academies. I agree, however, there should be some limit though for catapult experience growth (20 level catapult is too much even for Afganistan). But even if such a restriction is introduced in future version, just replace this catapult by newbye and restart the training. This way or another, you will get some good units (maybe lower than 20 level, but higher than ones which just come out from barracks) and it will provide you with a certain advantage in real wars. Few great generals will be useful as well.

And that's how happens in real life! Vietnam and Afgan provided USA and USSR with a good deal of generals, who are very much respected in armies. And some of them are now big politician guys. So even small conflicts provide army with experience GG. So, I don't think there is an exploit in Civ.

I don't know if you'd call it an exploit or not and it doesn't really matter if you are playing single player unless it is for some kind of ranking and then everyone just has to agree if it is allowed or not allowed. I would say if you want to talk about it reflecting real life that it isn't too accurate that a nation would constantly weaken an objective's defenses but not take the objective when they easily could just to gain combat experience. If we could finish off all the opposition in Afghanistan I'm pretty sure we would not just keep a few Taliban fighters around for artillery target practice.

Maybe they should make it so siege units only get experience if the chance of withdrawal is less than say 95% so there is still some risk of losing the units but if you want to risk them you can get experience.

 

[alex sword]

MAn, if firaxis gets an idea that minimal damage chance for cats should be resctricted by 95% I will have no objections. Anyway, such a factory willl make sense - due to GG generation.

Random leaders and "universal" strategy just doesn't work on Deity. Just forget it. What about me, I am styll tying to model SE/CE economy (taking into account fin/phi traits) , but there are still too many questons open :-(.
Will see you later.

thanks, Alex.

 

[mudphud]

Random leaders and "universal" strategy just doesn't work on Deity. Just forget it. What about me, I am styll tying to model SE/CE economy (taking into account fin/phi traits) , but there are still too many questons open :-(.
Will see you later.

thanks, Alex.

I never said universal strategy. Even if you play random leaders you customize your strategy based on who you pull and your starting position ect. Of course on deity you will probably choose the leader you are strong with.

 

[alex sword]

I have strategies for *random* leaders playing on Monarch, but not for Deity. And at this point (playing on continents) I'm 99% sure that no one stratgey exists for "random" leader (even on Monarch, all strategies depend on traits).

 

[popejubal]

I have strategies for *random* leaders playing on Monarch, but not for Deity. And at this point (playing on continents) I'm 99% sure that no one stratgey exists for "random" leader (even on Monarch, all strategies depend on traits).

I'm pretty sure that's what mudphud just said.

The strategy for Random Leader is to look at who the leader is, what that leader's strengths and weaknesses are and what kind of cities the map lends itself to. You don't know what your strategy is ahead of time, but that doesn't mean you won't have one.

 

[alex sword]

popejibal: Ok. What I'm trying to model now in Excel is which variants of SE/CE/HE economy should be applied for given leader\given level\number of cities.

I've all the formules but the model have to be simplified due to a lot of factors which make it impossible to take them all into account...