Wonder Elimination Thread

Why not include the numbers? It takes less time to glance at a +/-... and if we want to compare to earlier posts we can still do so. No one forces us to look at the +/- ;)
 
Big Ben (13)
Chichen Itza (16)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (6)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (14)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (3)
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (1)
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (19)

I think those are the correct numbers. Taj went from 7 to 3. Utberguy voted them down, but it's unclear if maktata was voting or commenting on the lack of editing. I think (s)he was commenting as there are no changes from the previous posts other than replacing the Louvre. Great Library corrected to 19 from 18 from Utberguy's vote as well.

Reasons:
(+) Hanging Gardens: Recently played a game with Egypt... OMG was next to a mountain and surrounded by plains and quite a few hills. Game over once I got that thing built. This is the wonder that keeps on giving as it allows you to out produce and out grow the AI, allowing you to get to other wonders you want for your strategy more quickly.

(-) Taj Mahal: A decent wonder, especially paired with Chichen Itza and finished during a golden age from happiness. Can spend nearly an entire era in a golden age with this wonder. However it requires Chichen Itza to be really worthwhile, so it's a utility wonder, and lesser than those around at this point.

zyx said:
Btw: To increase the speed of the process, wouldn't be -3, +1 better? I mean how often do we want to read the same reasons? If a new Wonder Elimination Thread starts after a new patch, I'd say -3, +1 with 15 points at the beginning ( so 5 negative votes would be needed, if there is no positive one ). I don't want to abolish traditions, but a fair chance to finish that process, as I am really curious which wonder makes the race.
civnoob13 said:
Actually in the pre-patch one I started at 20, so this is already a massive reduction. I think -3 and +1 would make it too negative as a concept, you're 'hurting' far more than you're 'healing' and one guy's opinion can be very overrepresented. This is already sort of true for -2 +1
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I agree with xyz here, and I had suggested as such in the previous elimination thread. If you start the round off with somewhere between 21-30 points it would give wonders enough time to stay in the game before a dogpile, but would speed up the process of elimination. Given the sheer number of wonders in the game it makes more sense to have a heavier down vote effect so that wonders that people actually up vote actively will stand out from those that get ignored until their time has come.

On smaller sample sizes -2/+1 makes more sense, but anything over 10 items on a list needs quicker eliminations so that the post ends within 1 month's time :P
 
Big Ben (13)
Chichen Itza (16)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (6)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (14)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (3)
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (18) +1
Louvre (-1) -2
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Louvre is just useless for any victory other than culture, and even then it's quite rubbish. Hanging Gardens is great for hilly cities.
 
Big Ben (13)
Chichen Itza (16)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (6)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (14)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (3)
Forbidden Palace (13) +1
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Oracle (13) -2
Porcelain Tower (19)

Forbidden palace deserves more love than that. It can give absurd amount of happiness in late game. Too bad AI tends build it quite early. Just capture it if you can.

Oracle is good but it has a huge opportunity cost. I'm not ready to compete with AI for the oracle that early in the game.

Also removed louvre from the list and added +1 to hanging gardens (civnoob13 forgot to add it).
 
Big Ben (13)
Chichen Itza (16)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (6)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (14)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (3)
Forbidden Palace (14)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (10)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (19)

FP : Scaling Happiness Wonder
Great Wall : well, defensive wonders - I build units instead, and Imo Himeji Castle I would prefer before Great Wall. Also note that the Great wall isn't that big on huge maps.

And the 2nd dark green is the right green, the third green is seagreen and the 4th is Lime
 
Big Ben (13)
Chichen Itza (16)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (4)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (3)
Forbidden Palace (14)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (10)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Statue of Liberty just isn't given enough credit. I typically am rocking 5-10 specialists per city when it comes so that means +5-10 :c5production: in each city. Base. That is so massive for giving your army or science victory a strong mid-late game push. :c5production: facilitates every victory type.

Himeji Castle has been nerfed and you really should never be fighting many defensive wars anyway. Not enough for it to really matter. If it makes a difference for you then you probably already have lost.
 
Big Ben (13)
Chichen Itza (16)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (4)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (3)
Forbidden Palace (15) +1
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (8) -2
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Forbidden Palace is quite good.

Great wall is typically built early and of limit use anyway.
 
Big Ben (11)
Chichen Itza (16)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (4)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (3)
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (8)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (19)

BB: I don't purchase to much that's just me though
Orc: Early xtra SP is very nice!!
 
Big Ben (11)
Chichen Itza (17)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (4)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (1)
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (8)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Chicken Pizza for the +4 happiness. Can be a good alternative to Notre-Dame. Persia definitively needs to build this. I can rush it from the HS ge too(often possible in mp). If i have time i can hard build ND later and use the extra money to buy/upgrade units meanwhile(strong in mp).

Taj Mahal needs a little buff...Chichen can do the same with 2 GA from itself and comes sooner.
 
Big Ben (11)
Chichen Itza (17)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (4)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Taj Mahal (0):ar15: :dance:
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (8)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Reasons:
(+) Hanging Gardens: Awesome wonder that lets you have a super capital with either heavy production, outpaced growth for huge science, or quicker GP's. Personally I think they should have only made it +6 food or so, but retained the +3 happiness bonus

(-) Taj Mahal: A decent wonder, especially paired with Chichen Itza and finished during a golden age from happiness. Can spend nearly an entire era in a golden age with this wonder. However it requires Chichen Itza to be really worthwhile, so it's a utility wonder, and lesser than those around at this point. See you next game!
 
Big Ben (9) -2
Chichen Itza (17)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (4)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (9) +1
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Come on, why can't you understand the greatness of this (damn) wall. So anoying to be up against and for so long.
Big Ben. I had to think for a long time "what did that do". Isn't it the one that makes buying units cheaper or so. I rarely needing panic help when conducting warfare.

Edit: And if Big Ben do something else then it can't be that good since I can't remember building it other than a consolation price and then I still don't remember what it do.
 
may you correct the colors, green for +1 and red for -2.

Great wall : limited size, never counted - but 8 may 10 tiles (radius), which are affected ?, and the 2nd : an enemy unit has to enter your terrority and this terrority has to be affected by great wall. That usually don't happen, and both together is something 1:1000000. Big Maps, Wide Empire, preventive defensive wars.
Or simply build a catapult or and a swordmen instead of great wall.

Or a question to your self : how often do enemy soldiers enter your great wall terrority ? and what advantage Great Wall has given then ?
 
NicTeos said:
may you correct the colors, green for +1 and red for -2.

Great wall : limited size, never counted - but 8 may 10 tiles, which are affected ?, and the 2nd : an enemy unit has to enter your terrority and this terrority has to be affected by great wall. That usually don't happen, and both together is something 1:1000000. Big Maps, Wide Empire, preventive defensive wars.
Or simply build a catapult or and a swordmen instead of great wall.

Or a question to your self : how often do enemy soldiers enter your great wall terrority ? and what advantage Great Wall has given then ?
Click to expand...
Then. To be honest, the Great Wall is not particularly good for my self, but since lately my closest neighbor (and the one that I will have most of my wars with) always build it and thanks to that, my wars with him turns into epic wars. So I build it if I can so my (very often warmonger) neighbor don't.
 
hm, hardly change something for me.
At begin the range of the wall is limited in the most cases and normally the battles are near the borders, so enemy great wall hardly ever comes in range. My military is normally based on infantry and artillery units, and not at the speed. Cavalry was overpowered in the first versions, but since the cav-nerfs I hardly ever build anyone. Enemy Great wall makes hardly any difference in the result for me.

The only point, which speaks for Great wall are the GP points for an GE. But at military, it makes for me no difference.
 
NicTeos said:
Great wall : limited size, never counted - but 8 may 10 tiles (radius), which are affected ?
Click to expand...

The wall visually is small, but it actually applies to all your territory on the map. It's still a questionable wonder though... especially weak if we start out near rough terrain that's slow anyways. :)
 
Thalassicus said:
The wall visually is small, but it actually applies to all your territory on the map. It's still a questionable wonder though... especially weak if we start out near rough terrain that's slow anyways. :)
Click to expand...

Would it be possible to expand the great wall as territory expands across your empire to make it more obvious that it goes across the whole empire? It would also look great to see it all across your borders.
 
Another possibility is our borders get some form of special pattern showing they're fortified. It might look odd for the wall itself to move. :)

This might be possible with the game core, but we don't have access to that yet as modders. Most graphical stuff is out of our reach right now.
 
NicTeos said:
may you correct the colors, green for +1 and red for -2.

Great wall : limited size, never counted - but 8 may 10 tiles (radius), which are affected ?, and the 2nd : an enemy unit has to enter your terrority and this terrority has to be affected by great wall. That usually don't happen, and both together is something 1:1000000. Big Maps, Wide Empire, preventive defensive wars.
Or simply build a catapult or and a swordmen instead of great wall.

Or a question to your self : how often do enemy soldiers enter your great wall terrority ? and what advantage Great Wall has given then ?
Click to expand...

Just for extra clarification so people definitely don't unfairly vote down the great wall - it effects all of your empire, every city and every tile before or after it is actually built. It is so effective for defending and allows you to bombard, retreat etc much more and gives you more of a warning of what to bring forward to counter. It's not the best, but it's much better than the big ben, a wonder useless to me because I rarely, if ever, rushbuy by the time it becomes available. About your second comment, I do have to ask whether you have been against the great wall, because what you're describing as what happens is simply untrue.


Big Ben (7) -2
Chichen Itza (17)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (4)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (10) +1
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (19)
 
Big Ben (5) -2
Chichen Itza (18) +1
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (4)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (14)
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (10)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Why: one I never build and one I always wish I could ;)
 
Big Ben (5)
Chichen Itza (18)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (2) -2
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15) +1
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (10)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Himeji: if defending, spend hammers on units. If attacking, not very useful.
Sydney Opera House: don't compare this with Oracle. A late-game policy is something else entirely.
 
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