Wonder Elimination Thread

[Tabarnak]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (18)
Pentagon (2)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (5)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (14)
Hagia Sophia (20)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (8)

Colossus is too situational to be a better wonder than average. Porcelain Tower is a free tech and a way to get another gs faster. Combined with HS and 2 scientists running, GS spawning rate is awesome.

 

[jdog5000]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (18)
Pentagon (0) - gone
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (5)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (14)
Hagia Sophia (20)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (8)

Pentagone (ha!) - Too late to matter, there's lots of gold in the modern era

Hanging Gardens makes it possible to build nearly any later wonder as you can work as many production tiles as you want, huge pop boost in core early city is good for so much and compounds for the rest of the game.

 

[zyx]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13) +1
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (5)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (12)-2
Hagia Sophia (20)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (8)


As I prefer annexing cities to puppeting Machu Picchu gives me the needed gold. Great Wall is useless, as I most often start conquering when I have bombers and tanks - I am happy that the AI is building it instead of a more important wonder though.

 

[civnoob13]

Glad to see that this is beginning to re-gain some momentum.


Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15) +1
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (5)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9) -2
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (20)
Hanging Gardens (19)
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (8)

The Eiffel tower always comes at a critical part of the game for me, usually when I am at war and need that extra culture. The Forbidden Palace rarely has an impact on my game and is frequently built very early.

 

[Becephalus]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (5)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (21) +1
Hanging Gardens (17) -2
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (8)

HG= The AI always builds this super early in my games so it isn't really even an option. On top of that the food only means anything if you have the happiness to pay for it. On most maps happiness is constraining your growth, not food.

HS= I don't know what they were thinking when they made this wonder. A wonder that is of small benefit but comes with a free wonder as a bonus is just silly. It should give you a great artist or something.

 

[wydon]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (3) -2
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (21)
Hanging Gardens (18) +1
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (8)

HG - hills+HG=
SH - nerfed culture not worth it anymore

 

[Tabarnak]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (3)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (13)
Hagia Sophia (21)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (6)

GW is nice to slow down attackers and hurt them with ranged attacks(at least in mp). I don't feel that the Pyramids can help me much unless i don't go for Liberty but still REX enough.

 

[jdog5000]

HG= The AI always builds this super early in my games so it isn't really even an option. On top of that the food only means anything if you have the happiness to pay for it. On most maps happiness is constraining your growth, not food.

Go Tradition and build HG in your capital. When you finish tradition, for a size 20 capital you only get 8 unhappy faces (-10 for 1/2 capital, plus -1 for each 10 pop in city).

Plus, you don't use all 10 food for growth! It allows you to work as many mined hills as you want, have several specialists, and still grow above the normal rate. It's so flexible.

 

[Becephalus]

Go Tradition and build HG in your capital. When you finish tradition, for a size 20 capital you only get 8 unhappy faces (-10 for 1/2 capital, plus -1 for each 10 pop in city).

Plus, you don't use all 10 food for growth! It allows you to work as many mined hills as you want, have several specialists, and still grow above the normal rate. It's so flexible.

Maybe I build more farms or food buildings than other people? People do seem to love the HG and I just don't get it.

Personally, I always feel like the brake on my growth in that era is gold and happiness, not production or population. I am frequently not building granaries/lighthouses in my cities even after I would want to because I simply don't have the happiness/gold. Not that I have large happiness problems mind you, just that I am always running +single digits.

In my last game for example I rolled a start with 1 other civ and 3 cs on a small continent (say room for 16 cities?).

I built 2 early wonders and a barracks, then 2 quick settlers, then rushed the other player with 6 swordsmen. So now I have 5 cities and -2 happiness. Why would I want the HG at this point instead of the HS? So I build some circuses/coliseums and take out two of the CS who are useless but have unique luxuries (because I also have no gold due to my army+barracks), so now I am at say +4 happiness with 7 cities surrounded by a cs and 8 great city sites

Why would I want to waste happiness on my capital?

To be fair this game I had liberty and honor. But I would say I end most of my games with 20-30 core cities and 5-10 puppets, maybe half that size if I decide on culture. But if the HG is a tradition specific small empire specific wonder I just don't see it as one of the top 2. +10 food just doesn't seem that valuable to my playstyle at that point. If it came 2 techs later I would be all over it, but at that moment in the tech tree it is not a pressing concern.

 

[fmlizard2]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (1) -2
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (13)
Hagia Sophia (22) +1
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (6)

Stonehenge isn't bad. It just comes at a point in the game where there are a lot of other more useful things to build. It is difficult to ever prioritize it over Great Library, Pyramids, or even the Great Lighthouse. Frankly, you are better off rustling up some cash and buying a cultural CS for your early culture.

Hagia Sophia is such a beast, and it can give you a free Hanging Gardens or Chichen Itza, depending on what is available and your playstyle. Plus it probably winds up contributing another couple great people to your empire by the time all is said and done. 3-4 free great people, including one in the early medieval era? Sign me up.

 

[Storminator]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (1)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (18) + 1
Great Wall (13)
Hagia Sophia (22)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (9)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (4) -2

I've never built the pyramids - I tend to have a bunch of works and often run out of things for them to do anyway.

With the new GL it's pretty awesome, even if you have to race for it. I find I chop as much of it as I can, but it's a heck of a spring board.

 

[Dreadnought]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (1)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (9)
Great Library (18)
Great Wall (13)
Hagia Sophia (22)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (9)
Oracle (15) +1
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (2) -2

I think the Pyramids were pretty bad before the patch; now, I think they're trash.

The Oracle, on the other hand, is a wonder I always seem to try and get. The extra early policy is, in effect, keeping you one step ahead of the opposition, and doesn't increase future policy cost.

 

[NicTeos]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (1)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (18)
Great Wall (13)
Hagia Sophia (22)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (7)
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (2) -2

I gave civ5 with the patch another chance again, but after 2,3 games I felt, that some balancing issues went better, but it's still no civ.

Louvre, the same reason as in the pre-patch thread : too less GA time, Great Artists are meh. I like playing wide and so I like happiness and FP become a very strong scaling Happyness wonder. If you get something about 1500 unhappiness - you/I don't want to know, how much it would be without the 10% through population.

To the other wonders, imho pyramids become better in short term. Don't forget the free worker. And the need for less workers, it makes a difference if 45 or 60 workers, when each unit cost 8g.

Defensive wonders... well - preventive defensive war should solve the problem

However, I should have tried Ra's little bit more - but imho it became very worse - even with max ra bonus. But I guess I just haven't looked that close at this.

 

[civnoob13]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (1)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (18)
Great Wall (14) +1
Hagia Sophia (22)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (7)
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (18)
Pyramids (0) -2 GONE

Yes, the pyramids are most certainly trash - they give the exact same bonus as a certain SP (the name escapes me) with a free worker and 25% construction bonus. An SP giving to same bonus as a wonder? Come on now. Even if the wonder was unique, it would still be close to useless because the bonus is so small.

The great wall is still so useful for defence. You can bombard more, you have more time to form a defence, and it is far easier to pick out specific units to attack knowing you can't possibly be counter-attacked.

 

[civnoob13]

"Defensive wonders... well - preventive defensive war should solve the problem"

Not everyone wants to declare wars when they don't need to. You can built defensive wonders and then waste less hammers on military which could be spent on pursuing whatever victory you are going for.

 

[DemonMaster]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (1)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (8)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (18)
Great Wall (15) +1
Hagia Sophia (22)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (5) -2
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (18)

In my most recent game I met an AI with this damn wall. I hate it. So in my next game I will do everything I can to build it first.

For me Louvre feels like the runners up price when an AI finished the wonder you actually have hoped to get.

 

[moyang]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (1)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (6) (-2)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (18)
Great Wall (15)
Hagia Sophia (23) (+1)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (5)
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (18)

Since we dont take optics early and water tiles are rly bad with lighthouse, the Colossus is just awful - and it gives merchant gpp, which is weakest GP imo. So the -2 points.

Hagia Sophia - you can choose GE and grab another wonder - Porcelain Tower preferbly. It is rather cheap too.

 

[Becephalus]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (1)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (6)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (18)
Great Wall (13) -2
Hagia Sophia (24) (+1)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (5)
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (18)

The fact that I have built the great wall in only about 10% of games, and don't remember wanting to seek it out after having done so, makes me think it is rather meh.

Do I really need to say anything to justify my belief that the HS is the best wonder hands down? It would be build-able if weak even without the free great person...

 

[zyx]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (-1) -2
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (6)
Forbidden Palace (12) +2
Great Library (18)
Great Wall (13) -2
Hagia Sophia (24) (+1)
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (5)
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (18)

I love the happy people FP makes, I just wonder why??? ;-)
SH is neither a cultural necessity nor a good wonder. I used to build it at the beginnig but after all these patches it is absolutely crap.

 

[mrlovanhey]

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (15)
Eiffel Tower (15)
Himeji Castle (8)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (13)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (4) -2
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (18)
Great Wall (13) -2
Hagia Sophia (25) +1
Hanging Gardens (18)
Louvre (5)
Oracle (15)
Porcelain Tower (18)

This time I'll boost the Hagia Sophia. Excellent wonder with free GP and it comes at an excellent time in the tech tree. I always buy myself a free Porcelain Tower for it, which also is a great wonder.

The Colossus is a fairly useless wonder that isn't worth the early construction it requires.