Wonder Elimination Thread

[Hasire]

Big Ben (5)
Chichen Itza (18)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (2)
Machu Picchu (13)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (8)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (20)
The great wall is a pain to fight against but for a human doesn't help because you don't need any help for defensive wars. The porcelain tower give a huge boost to science.

 

[NicTeos]

About your second comment, I do have to ask whether you have been against the great wall, because what you're describing as what happens is simply untrue.

the second argument, that enemies hardly ever enter my terrority and it hardly ever happen that an enemy unit comes near to my capital or "homelands".

However it's new to me that great wall effects the whole empire. In civ4, the walls on the map counted, at least against the barbarians. In Civ5 I don't looked that close about the effects and have only seen the walls on the map. And even then, it hardly changes anything for me.
And what is simply untrue ?

Big Ben (5)
Chichen Itza (18)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (2)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (18)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (14)
Porcelain Tower (20)

This time : Machu Picchu. While it's rather weak when build - maybe extra 10g, it becomes very strong by the time ( quite often 1000g through trade in the end). When entering the modern ages, then my trade income is about equal to the once through the cities. The weakness that it needs a mountain in the near, is also a strength. Other nations hardly ever build this, and I build quite fast a city near mountains especially for this wonder.

Great Wall : It's a waste of hammers and the best defense is the offensive.

edit : haven't seen the new page, values corrected.

And maybe someone can calc the ra benefit (porcelain tower). Haven't look at ra's since patch.

 

[zyx]

Big Ben (5)
Chichen Itza (18)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (2)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19) +1
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (15)
Great Library (19)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (12) -2
Porcelain Tower (19)

ND makes me happy - due to CI it is no longer that outstanding though.
Oracle: a free SP early in the game, when SPs come quite easily isn't that useful, compared to Sydney Opera House.

PS: I really would have liked to kick HC out, but as I voted against it already recently I leave it up to someone else.Some

 

[fmlizard2]

Big Ben (5)
Chichen Itza (18)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (2)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (19)

Great Library has become the new NC start and can make so much happen with a slingshot to Medieval tech.

Forbidden Palace is so overrated. In my current game I was going to build it but when I noticed it would only give me 3.8 I had a hard time justifying it. Notre Dame will be better in all but the largest empires.

 

[NicTeos]

FB scales, an the 10% becomes quite fast more than the 10 from notre dame. When you have 1000 unhappiness through population, then this 10% are awesome - it scales.

38 pops is little bit less.
when I build FB I should have something around 75 pops.
and in modern something about 500 pops.

On tiny maps or really small empires, fp is indeed not the best wonder.

 

[civnoob13]

the second argument, that enemies hardly ever enter my terrority and it hardly ever happen that an enemy unit comes near to my capital or "homelands".

I suppose it depends on how you play - If you like to be peaceful and go for peaceful victories then of course the enemy will go into your borders a LOT. I'm confused why you're distinguishing teritory and homelands because they're the same thing.

However it's new to me that great wall effects the whole empire. In civ4, the walls on the map counted, at least against the barbarians. In Civ5 I don't looked that close about the effects and have only seen the walls on the map. And even then, it hardly changes anything for me.

From what I can remember from civ 4, the great wall was also deceptive - people thought that the GW only worked where it was visually. In fact it worked all across the empire on the continent that it was built. It must just be different experiences with the GW because having most of your units have one movement is quite a large change, and it is great on the defensive.

And what is simply untrue ?

That the GW doesn't work everywhere within your borders.

Great Wall : It's a waste of hammers and the best defense is the offensive.

Not if you want to play defensively without taking over cities, which is what the GW is designed for. Remember, civ isn't just a warmonger game, you shouldn't have to take over cities just because they pose a threat, and the great wall is very useful with this playstyle. Well, for me anyway.

 

[fmlizard2]

FB scales, an the 10% becomes quite fast more than the 10 from notre dame. When you have 1000 unhappiness through population, then this 10% are awesome - it scales.

38 pops is little bit less.
when I build FB I should have something around 75 pops.
and in modern something about 500 pops.

On tiny maps or really small empires, fp is indeed not the best wonder.

I've never seen anything even close to 1000 unhappiness from population. Are you doing a huge marathon map all the way until 2049 and dominating the whole thing? Heck, even 100 unhappiness from population takes a long time to get to and is really only relevant in domination play. By the time you have that you probably have captured the enemy city that built it anyway.

 

[civnoob13]

Big Ben (3) -2
Chichen Itza (18)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (2)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20) +1
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (19)

The hanging gardens is great for science victories with the extra population and production, allows you to build on a very hilly site, making it great for militaristic victories when you give the city barracks and amories etc. The extra production makes great use for a wonder site, which can be converted into any victory you want.

The Big Ben is useless to me because I rarely rushbuy anything late-game. Buildings are too expensive, even with the discount, and I am upgrading military units, not buying new ones. I may occasionally rushbut but that is too rare to bother with the big ben.

 

[NicTeos]

@civnoob

k, that with the range in civ5 was untrue.
But I'm pretty sure with the barbs in civ4.
Maybe you have a link therefor ?

I see homelands as my most productive, best developed cities and those are hardly ever at borders. The inner core. While the outer terrority with new built/conquered cities having quite low value for me and even the loss of the one or other city doesn't harm.

However, no wall ever lasted forever. Maybe it can bring some time, but you still need units to fight. A Wall can't fight.

@fmlizard
500 (pops) is a value which I get rather often.

~1550 total unhappiness was on the 2nd or 3rd biggest map type, something by 1990 and was the test run for happiness with the latest patch. I didn't have that big problems than prior. And had something about ~1555 total happiness (about 90-100 cities). ( with -5% pop-uh per SP, 10% through FP, 50% for specialsts per SP). In this first test run with france on prince or king, something in the middle, I was able to build all wonders by myself. ( since the ai don't go that hard for wonders anymore ).

But, please, which numbers do you have ? ( about,average)

 

[Bezurn]

Big Ben (3)
Chichen Itza (18)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (2)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (21)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (17)

(+) Hanging Gardens: Gives a monarchy cap a serious edge

(-) Porcelain Tower: I maybe sign 6 or less research agreements by the time this wonder is available. IMO its not worth it for me and my play style most of the time.

 

[civnoob13]

@civnoob

But I'm pretty sure with the barbs in civ4.
Maybe you have a link therefor ?

Yep, it definitely effects all borders on the continent it is built:
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Wall - look at the civ 4 bit - it says it prevents barbs from preventing borders on its continent - nothing to do with the graphics.

I see homelands as my most productive, best developed cities and those are hardly ever at borders. The inner core. While the outer terrority with new built/conquered cities having quite low value for me and even the loss of the one or other city doesn't harm.

Fair enough, but you're clearly playing in a style that doesn't require the great wall. The non-domination style with 3-8 well developed cities benefits greatly from the great wall.

However, no wall ever lasted forever. Maybe it can bring some time, but you still need units to fight. A Wall can't fight.

Of course you still need units, but there are no wonders that are useful just by themselves.

 

[basta]

Big Ben (3)
Chichen Itza (19) +1
Eiffel Tower (16)
Himeji Castle (0) -2
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (21)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (17)

Time for HC to go--defensive wonders are a priori second tier. Chichen Itza comes at a time for me it is actually possible to envisage building it.

 

[jdog5000]

Big Ben (1) -2
Chichen Itza (19)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15) +1
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (21)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (17)

BB I only build if I have cities looking for something to do at that time, or if I want to get a new city with a wonder in it for the culture bonus. It's just not exciting at all.

The Statue of Liberty can produce gobs of free extra production in basically every city, it's a great wonder and especially powerful when combined with Freedom and lots of specialists.

 

[Bezurn]

Big Ben (1)
Chichen Itza (19)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (15)
Sydney Opera House (15)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (21)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (18)

I'm not voting again today, I'm just posting a correction to the list. At the top of the page Porc. Tower went from 20 to 19 without any action on it. I am correcting that and bumping it to 18. Have a nice day.

 

[NicTeos]

Big Ben (1)
Chichen Itza (19)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (16)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (21)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (18)

Statue of liberty is really awesome. ( huge production increase, .. if you have many specialists - I do )
The opera house comes a little bit late. Even with the new culture bonus it can only hardly change something about win/lose. While SoL is still early enough to have huge impact, I don't see this at the opera house.

But even when the game is still undecided until opera house, can one late SP change that much ? ( than another modern wonder, units, something else ? )

To big ben : it depends how much surplus you have. Nothing x factor = Nothing. 500 gold/round ( for buying buildings) * factor is another benefit. However, it's worse if you can't spend gold for buying stuff.

And
maybe someone can tell me how much benefit you gain with the porcelain tower and the better ra's ?

 

[ViterboKnight]

Angkor Wat (12)
Big Ben (12)
Brandenburg Gate (12) -2
Chichen Itza (12)
Cristo Redentor (12)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (12)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (12)
Stonehenge (12)
Sydney Opera House (12)
Taj Mahal (12)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (12)
Great Lighthouse (12)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (12) +1
Hanging Gardens (12)
Kremlin (12)
Louvre (12)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (12)
Pyramids (12)
United Nations (12)


I find myself to easily get great generals in every game, even if not playing primarily for war. If I can get a great general with little effort, i see no reason to get another one with a wonder. One is almost always enough for me. I don't need to have several armies in different parts of the world.


Great people points were already a great boost, even in Civ4 with the Parthenon.
Now, the bonus is even greater, with a GP you can choose.
Huge wonder!!!

 

[NicTeos]

viterboknight, maybe you continue the list from post #135 and don't use the start post ?

 

[Bezurn]

Yea, Viterboknight, your vote is invalid as you are down voting a wonder that is no longer on the list. The procedure is to copy the last person's post and then modify it from there.

Big Ben (1)
Chichen Itza (19)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Machu Picchu (14)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (16)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (22)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (16)

(+) Building the HG in your capital is very nice... capturing the HG in another civs capital, not so nice as unless you annex the city happiness will become a problem.

(-) Porcelain Tower gives 25% more on research agreements. That equals 1-2 free techs per game if you have friendly neighbors who won't DOW you 2 turns before the RA is about to pop. It's good for an overseas map, but we all know the AI doesn't understand the game on more than 1 continent. Furthermore you can simply capture the wonder if you want it usually. Whereas capturing some other wonders gives far less benefit than building it yourself.

 

[Tabarnak]

Big Ben (1)
Chichen Itza (19)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Machu Picchu (15)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (16)
Sydney Opera House (11)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (22)
Oracle (12)
Porcelain Tower (16)

Machu Picchu for the extra gold. With Harun and the commerce tree you can maximize this wonder capacity to generate gold. Sydney is too much situationnal. You even need a coastal city. Bleh.

 

[Becephalus]

Big Ben (1)
Chichen Itza (19)
Eiffel Tower (16)
Machu Picchu (15)
Notre Dame (19)
Sistine Chapel (11)
Statue of Liberty (16)
Sydney Opera House (11)
Forbidden Palace (13)
Great Library (20)
Great Wall (6)
Hagia Sophia (26)
Hanging Gardens (20) -2
Oracle (13) +1
Porcelain Tower (16)

HG: Where are you guys getting the happiness for this? I rarely build it and I always have more food then I can use, and less happiness then I need. 5 techs later sure I could use the food, but where it is it is just useless, and food is one of the easiest resources in the game to get. Its 5 river farms, big deal. In a sense equivalent to the Colossus since if you have the hanging gardens you usually TP those five tiles anyway if you start running out of happiness.

It is built early and directly competes with your chance to build two great wonders (HS and CI). I say boo on the HG (as a top 5 wonder, it is not horrible like Angkor Wat or the Brandenburg gate).

OR: Some people's justification or voting this down is that early policies are cheap. This just displays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the policy costs work. This is 1000x more useful then the already useful Opera House. You get that extra policy for pretty much the entire game. Since the cost doesn't increase you will always be a step ahead on the policy track, and since some policies/finish bonuses are very good this is quite important.