Wonder Elimination Thread

Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 10 +1
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 18 -3
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 23
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 23

Hubble can almost guarantee a science victory if you set up for it properly
Louvre is nice but the G&K addition of counting free GP towards next great person production lowers Louvre's attractiveness.
 
By what measure is selling luxes for gold an "exploit"? I can't recall ever seeing anyone make that claim. Some people consider selling a lux before DoW or letting a lux get pillaged on purpose an exploit (something which I largely agree with) but just any old trade?

"Exploit" may not be the best phrase, since it doesn't do anything to substantially disadvantage AI rivals, and indeed strategically straight lux-for-gold sales may not be particularly advisable when maximising golden ages or supporting 4 more pop for the 30 turns of the trade can lead to greater returns. But it's lazy play since it takes no actual work - you can do it with anyone you aren't actively hostile with, and it allows you to churn out archers or spears (or cost towards settlers) without needing to put particular effort into developing your early economy.

You get at least as much science benefit from getting 2nd and 3rd cities up asap as building a library thanks to the population.

Not immediately - if, like me, you play to maximise early growth in the capital, that new library is an immediate +4 or 5 beakers per turn. Building settlers takes almost as long per settler as building a library before you unlock the appropriate policy if going Liberty (which I no longer find a very useful tree to take in most circumstances), and if you do build rather than buy them you're delaying pop growth. And by the time you've settled two new cities and grown them, your capital will be churning out still more bpt. You'll equalise eventually, but there's no substitute for an early library for getting ahead early (unless you're Maya, or at a pinch Babylonian or Korean).

Mining ain't just for building mines

No, but if you go Bronze Working (or Masonry, come to that) immediately after Mining, that's still longer to wait before you get your Library. If you don't go for it immediately, you don't need to research Mining that early. Attila and Darius aside, it's not a tech route I'd choose.

I get rushed in games before turn 70 far more often than not.

I rarely get rushed at all - the fact that I've been rushed in my last three games came as an unwelcome surprise, and even then not one of them was before turn 70 (on Immortal). Recently I've often been the one launching the rush in collusion with a friendly AI, against an unsuspecting AI victim.

I will grant that simply looking at hammers in < hammers out is not, by itself, a complete measure of value on a wonder, and perhaps I could have phrased my original post on the subject better. But it is entirely reasonable to say that if the number of hammers going in is far more than those coming out then the wonder leaves something to be desired, and IME that is the case with SofL.

I actually agree that it should have gone before it did, and I don't often build it myself, but there are plenty of things that enhance specialist potential that make maximising specialists a good strategy (and especially if you're Korea). There seems to be a mindset in Civ V that specialists are for Great People first and production second (and granted this is largely true of Workshop path specialists, since if you have a production city you're rarely going to exceed the output you could get working a tile with the mediocre hammers from an engineer). But most specialists produce output you can't get from tiles (and by the time you've got several market chain buildings, you're likely to be running out of gold farms that match the same tile output), and larger cities in tall empires will simply run out of tiles to work anyway.
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 28
Hubble 10
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 18
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 23
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 23

I find the HG unnecessary

Leaning Tower helps GP production a lot..
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 28
Hubble 10
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 15
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 23
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 23

Reading (and remembering) that the Louvre's 2 artists increase GP cost means it can disrupt ones focus relatively easy.

Machu Pichu is still just a wonder I really enjoy, even going out of my way for it.
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 10
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 23
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 23

I like to have a big capital, quickly, so the Hanging Gardens are always welcome. It gives you a nice edge early.

I never liked Le Louvre so much, and more now hat GG also have a cultural bomb.

Side note: when you get a free GP from a wonder, does the cost go up in your cities?
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 23
Petra 28
Porcelain Tower 23

Love my Desert Hills with Petra.

I have generally won the game by the time Hubble comes around.
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 10
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 24
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 23

Oracle is awesome. Read my previous posts to see why.

I know that Petra is great when you have a desert city with lots of hills, but for me that doesn't happen often, and if the AI has a desert start on immortal they'll beat you to it, especially if you tech towards civil service.
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 30
Hubble 10
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 24
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 23

I always try to build Hanging Gardens together with Temple or Artemis when i play since i always go for Tall or on my OCC games.

as for Petra, it is situational and doesnt suit my playstyle.
 
How is Petra not part of a playstyle involving going tall when you're building other food generators? Especially given Mathematics, which you're taking for HG, leads to Currency? I mean, if you mean you don't actively seek out a desert area to settle, then sure, but if it was part of your tall empire already... ?
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 27
Hubble 10
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 24
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 23


HG because I never felt like it was necessary, I'd rather spend my hammers on other stuff
NC because I usually play wide with alot of puppets, the boost is significant
 
I changed Hubble to 7 four posts ago. Should look like this:

Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 27
Hubble 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 24
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 23
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 27
Hubble 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 21
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 23

Oracle: boring;
LToP: gives a Great Engineer with which (in my current game) I could russ PT next turn.
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 27
Hubble 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 27 (-3)
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 21
Petra 22 (+1)
Porcelain Tower 23

Petra is OP imo. If lucky you can win the game with this wonder.
Machu Picchu is good, but not as good as the other ones imo.
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 27
Hubble 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 23
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 23

Machu Picchu comes right in time, while Neuschwanstein is late and not so effective in my empires on tiny to small maps.
 
Chichen Itza 26
Hanging Gardens 27
Hubble 4
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 12
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 32
Oracle 24
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 23

I don't really care for Hubble. It's useful to accelerate a science vitory, but I only atempt those when I'm already the tech leader and victory is just a matter of time.
The Oracle comes early enough to make a real difference and can be used to enhance any playstile.
 
Zyx, can you tell where the mistake to oracle score came from, i backtracked few pages and i didint spot where it went wrong.
 
Alhambra 6 - 3 = 3
Chichen Itza 28
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 14
Leaning Tower of Pisa 28 + 1 = 29
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 24
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9

Alhambra = Nice to have, not a must have.
LtoP = great engineer = porcelain tower with a GP bonus and a whole bunch of happy CS!
 
Alhambra 3
Chichen Itza 28
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 15
Leaning Tower of Pisa 29
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 24
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9

Don't say me please that Neuschwanstein > Hubble, i wont believe it anyways
 
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