Wonder Project

[Amitourlo]

I think you should distinguish wonders and projects.

A wonder is a unique building (like the 7 world wonders) built by a unique civilization.

A project (Apollo, Manhattan, Cure against Cancer, Magellan voyage...) is more abstract and can be started and finished by every civilization. You cannot represent such projects in one building, just represent them as trophies a bit like militarian trophies (the obelisk in Paris...) or the statue of Liberty. China succeeded recently in sending a human being in space. I is not a wonder, just a project.

My remark is very simple, maybe too simple.
However, this distinction allows to really do a separation between them.

 

[searcheagle]

Why should this be done?

A great wonder is in game is something so rare that there can only be one in the world.

A small wonder is something so rare that only one can be created per civ.

How would a distinction be worth it?

 

[Amitourlo]

I never talked about the differenciation between small and great wonders.

I agree with your definitions but for me wonders like Program Apollo, Manhattan Project, Cure against Cancer, Magellan voyage... are not wonders (small or great) but projects. It is difficult do to a comparison between the pyramids and the Manhattan project because one is a building and one is completely abstract that is why you can't name them with the same name of wonder. I hope you understand.

A civilization will so be able to

- build great wonders (great buildings)
- build small wonders (small builings)
- ascomplish huge projects (NO building but maybe trophies...)

I think it is more clear yet.

 

[searcheagle]

I don't know why you want WANT projects. I understand the distinction.

Both require a huge investment of assets, just one is in physical units and the other is in developing concepts. I don't see that distinction being great enough to change the game for.

Am I wrong?

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Should only the Egypts be able to build the Pyramids, or should there only be one, not predetermined, civ that are able to start a certain Great Wonder, making it unavailable for the others?
While the projects could be a competition to finish first, to build and gain it's advantages?

 

[Pentium]

I think that why Great people are in Civ4. Like Newton, Magellan, etc. They're there instead of "building a voyage."

 

[Mewtarthio]

Could someone explain Pentium's comment to me? I might have missed something; have they actually release Civ4 info?

Regarding the topic: I don't see why there would be a difference. For a Great Wonder, like the Pyramids, you tie up a city's production to build a building. For something like Magellan's Voyage, you tie up a city's production to complete the project. In the end, only one person builds it (or one per Civ, if it's a Small Wonder) either way. Could you point out the difference to me, please? Incidentally, I've always considered the "buildings" you get from something like ToE to be more like monuments.

 

[mitsho]

The difference, as I get it, would be production and gold. The Magellan Voyage, Copernicus heliocentric-theory, the Manhattan projects, the Silk Road-Voyages are all things that do not need an especial big amount of shields (raw material, stone, etc) to build it as the pyramids for example. The real genial point behind these wonders are the ideas. It wasn't an extraordinary work to build the ships Magellan needed, it neither was one to build the astronomical instruments Copernicus needed to find his theory work. Newton or Darwin didn't need tons of stones, bricks, wood to realize his theory of gravity respectively of Evolution. They needed the KNOW-HOW.
And that's why we don't need shields to build the Magellan voyage, Copernicus', Newton's university or the Theory of Evolution, but something else: Gold and science.

I myself do not think this should be introduced this way, because I rather have other features.

I know many of you do not like Call to Power. But something it really had much much better, was the feature of master works. Meaning: If you're the first to research beton, gunpowder or to sail around the work, have the biggest part of the world mapped, etc. then you get a special benefit (bonus on units for x turns, bonus on production/science, etc.). Small bonus, but it was just a small spice. It's a bit like the philosophy-tech in civ3.

And I probably would prefer the master works on projects.

mitsho

 

[Amitourlo]

I like the idea that Projects do not need shields but Know-How, good scientists.

Maybe it would be possible to incorporate Scientific heroes like it exists Militarian Heroes ?!

Other questions to debate then:
- When should such a heroe appear ?
- Changes for a scientist civilization vs a non-scientist civilization ?

Just about the Magellan voyage:
One of your naval unit can ascomplish the turn of the world before you have build this wonder in Civ 3 ! That was effectivly better in CTP for this kind of problem.

I think with other ideas like that, we can find a solution all together for differencing projects from wonders.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I think that's what pentium meant by 'great people'. It does seem reasonable.
Maybe when you've discovered navigation, for example, you could spend some amount of money on a galley, as a project, and send it out to get around the world. Dependent on some factors and luck the first one who achieves the goal of the project gains some benefit.
At least there would be races more interesting than the wonderraces...

 

[ForbiddenPalace]

I like the idea of having both wonders and projects. Wonders require shield, and projects require a large amount of gold (goverment funding) and certain scientific leaders. Civs with scientific trait can undertake projects at a lower costs due to their tradition of scientific excellence. Better yet, each civ gets their unique projects.

 

[howeman]

"You cannot represent projects in one city"

That thought gave me an idea. The manhattan project was the co-operation between many different teams of scientists. Granted, there was one main team, but a lot of people contributed to the effort.

And so, maybe the "Great Projects" have a given shield production number, like great wonders, except great projects can be built by multiple cities at the same time, all contributing to the total shield count for that project. So, you could have your three best production cities all building the manhattan project, which would be the equivilent to setting all your science great minds onto a project. As they are more ideas than buildings, you should be able to work on them in more than one place.