Wonders -- as used in CEP

[ExpiredReign]

I was going to do a table with all the relevant details on it but I figure a link to the current Google Drive spreadsheet that defines these wonders is just as good.

Wonders as defined in CEP

Straight off the bat I will say there are many things in these wonders that we should change.

Minor gripes. I see no worthwhile reason for the 3 name changes (Leaning Tower, Hubble, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus) or the removal of Borobudur, Notre Dame and Prora.

Now we have a whole slew of new functions at our fingertips we could go all out and change the bonuses to leverage them.

So have a look and get your mind turning.

 

[Wodhann]

I also see no reason for the name changes or the removals. The change to colosseum is interesting though, not because the mausoleum needs a name change, but because I always wondered why firaxis named the happiness building colosseum and not "Arena", consdering the Colosseum is a specific place. I suppose the arena thing is a change from CEP I agree with.

 

[mystikx21]

I can think of a strong aesthetic reason to remove Prora. And in so far as it didn't really do anything, it seems strange to include it.

Notre Dame I find a little boring compared to Thal's alternative (Laibela), but that's not really a sufficient reason to change it.

Right off the bat I would say we would want to identify these issues in discussing wonders.

1) Is a wonder weak, or poorly priced, or too strong. Is it imbalanced game-play wise? Identifying which ones are most in need of a strong adjustment should be a priority. This would naturally impact most wonders which involve some happiness effect. Some wonders that provide gold or growth bonuses may be more powerful now as well.

2) Is there a gameplay/historical/aesthetic reason to add any additional wonders (optional) I believe the main reason for the renames was to avoid adding too many wonders and to remove wonders which were... not that impressive in historical achievement. If we don't remove any wonders (which I think should be a good starting point to avoid doing so), then additional work to create those (artwork, etc) can be preserved as an add-on of optional content rather than as a replacement. Most of that content was generated pre-BNW and simply preserved through. Which is also why Prora and Bordubor were removed (the Louvre was previously removed, but BNW changed it, so it was retained).

3) In light of the happiness system, we would want to consider how wonders should impact this, not just for wonders that add happiness or detract from unhappiness. Any wonders providing benefits globally throughout the happiness system may be significantly stronger (for example, Sistine Chapel would increase culture production globally). This is something we need to consider whether a wonder is weak or strong.

4) Should any have good tourism tie-ins (theme bonuses, raw tourism?) Or diplomatic effects? That currently do not exist or are available through modding tools.

5) I do not think most of those wonders retained policy unlocks. So that may be an older file? But moving around policy unlocks would be a way to adjust some policy trees. I'd rather we have a good thematic fit for those if possible. Pyramids in Liberty for instance is odd. That would be something to discuss mostly in a policy thread though.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Point 1)
Well that's a given. First step for all of us to give our input, regardless of the CEP or vanilla values used.

Point 2)
The historical/aesthetic view should be left aside at the moment. Unless it is a glaringly obvious error of placement, time wise, we can just focus on the actual details as with Point 1).

Point 3) & 4)
I was actually looking at a recent posting in the Creation & Customization forum that posed a question about Building_SpecialistYieldChanges. CEP used the YieldLibrary.lua to provide access to yields other than , which the stock DLL gives only, and we used that new function to buff wonders like Hagia Sophia and the Jade Hall. Giving & respectively to those buildings.
With the unified yields now coming along at a pace there are a whole lot of new ways to make our wonders... wonderful.

Point 5)
It might well be a bit out-of-date. I haven't touched it in months and I don't believe you would've touched it with any of your later edits to CEP. Regardless, it at least gives us some sort of starting point.

A point to note regarding the Church of Lalibela's free missionary. I had to create a new unit as the free missionary that was granted upon wonder completion. The extra religion spread that that wonder gives to missionaries wasn't being applied to the default unit. There may be other oddities like that with these wonders as CEP used lua to get around vanilla quirks and that meant timing issues with when/how the functions kicked in.

A couple of wonders give border expansion. It may be worthwhile looking how these interact with the optional 'Colonists' that also give border expansion. Maybe a tie-in or an exclusion of some sort. Don't know, just thinking on the go.

 

[Funak]

Well for starters I've always thought the Kremlin is way too bad compared to the SoL and Prora. I don't see the reason why it is so specific. Other two are useful for any strategy, happiness and production, while the kremlin gives a production bonus on tanks which just seems completely pointless for most peaceful games and even many warmonger games.

But then again I like peaceful games so maybe I'm biased

 

[Stalker0]

5) I do not think most of those wonders retained policy unlocks. So that may be an older file?

That's good to hear, that was the first thing I saw off the bat that made me go "wait what?"


I will start by reviewing the early game wonders. These are the most important, as the "wonder rush" means there are a lot of wonder competition early game. Wonders have to compete with each other, but also with that precious expansion and infrastructure you have to put into place.

The list (I don't have some of the expansions so I never have ToA myself):

Great Library - One of the better ones right now. And its not even just the free tech, the +3 science is nice, the great writing slots actually theme early in the game for a good tourism bonus, and the free library just gives me a hammer discount. In vanilla I actually never go for it because the AI ALWAYS pick it up. But currently the wonder rush is more reasonable with the mod so I will commonly have a go.

That said...its important to remember that espionage in the renaissance tends to erode a tech lead, so its not like that free tech puts you ahead forever.

Great Lighthouse - I consider it on a water heavy map but never other times. If my capital has a free strong sea start (like 3 sea resources) than its worth it because I'm going to build a lighthouse anyway.

Roman Forum (CSD) - Tends to come right around the same time as hanging gardens, and its not worth it comparatively.

Pyramids - Almost never pick them up. There is no bonus here I can't replicate by building a few more workers.

Statue of Zeus - You warmongers out there tell me

Great Wall - Never worth it to me. Other things to do with my time.

Hanging Gardens - One of my favorites, I get it a lot. Vanilla game I always go tradition (because tradition in vanilla is just plain better imo). The +6 food is great to rocket my capital off the ground, and the garden is actually a nice benefit as this free building tends to come a decent ways earlier than the actual garden.

Colossus - If I get to rush iron working through the GL and I think I have a good shot at this I'll go for it. Its actually not that expensive when you factor in the free Cargo Ship.

Stonehenge - If I want faith I get it, else I don't care.

Oracle - I've been debating this one back and forth in recent builds. The free policy is of course pretty nice (though is it truly free...or does it still impact your total culture needs?) Also the +3 culture in the long game actually generates quite a bit on its own.

Parthenon - Unless I am planning for a tourism game, I don't bother. Again I have too many other things to do with my time.

Terracota Army - I never get it myself...but again I'm normally a peacenick. It always seems to me to come too early for me to replicate much, so why bother.

 

[Funak]

The pyramids almost cost the same as building two workers, if I go for liberty (which is rare) I usually pick it up.

The oracle policy is free, doesn't increase your next policy cost, and the culture is great.

The parthenon gives you 6 culture/turn and 2 tourism, making it really great, but it usually goes pretty early so you usually have to give up Hanging gardens for it, which isn't worth it.

I usually go ToA instead of the great library if I feel like building one of the early wonders, It is borderline overpowered imho.

Colossus suffers from the same problem as Parthenon. HG is usually better and you can't really go for both. (Actually thinking about it the extra sea traderoute used as a internal traderoute would give more food than the HG) Guess a drawback on the colossus is it giving great merchant points and they are usually a waste of GP.

One thing I noticed is that Notre Dame de Paris is not pretty damn bad, went from giving 10 (global?) happiness to just removing 2 dull and 2 illiteracy in the city it's built in. Considering the only city that usually have enough production to compete for a midgame wonder is your capital and that your capital usually is your biggest culture and science producer it just seems kinda useless to me.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Just did a quick check through the code and yes, the Policy Unlocks for those wonders are what it is currently.

@Stalker0 makes a good point about the wonders provided by DLCs, like the ToA.
We had/have a problem in CEP with the ToA as it is now the Honor unlock. I did look at what we could change it to but couldn't come to a consensus and just left it as is. The percentage of players that now don't have all the DLCs is very small.

However, I would argue that ONLY standard wonders from the vanilla, G&K & BNW expansions should be under our gaze at the moment. Even wonders from suggested mods like CSD should only be discussed as optional.

 

[mystikx21]

Hmm. Maybe the version I was using doesn't have those unlocks. I only have one unlocked per tree/ideology on my own. And I don't remember taking those out when I picked up 3.16 and started hacking away at it. In any event, I'd definitely not bring back in more than one unlock per tree.

I don't see why Notre Dame should do much for illiteracy..... test changes shouldn't be considered as final changes.

I will do a check through the strategy forums again to look at wonders ratings. Leaders ratings there were instructive but mostly agreed with my priors. Nevertheless, given the number available, it helps to have some communal feedback to make sure nothing is missed.

 

[Funak]

I don't remember more than one wonder locked per policy tree ever, must have been ages ago

 

[mitsho]

A. The name changes are there to make the game less euro-centristic and point new users to interesting stuff not normally in civ. I'd approach a all-or-nothing to these changes, but they are very minor in my opinion.

B. I do think CEP got it mostly right with wonders and I can see the changes mostly taken over. Some effects are dependent on other changes (i.e. border growth = impact of gold buys + change of order of tiles chosen (sea tiles and hills prioritised somewhat and not dead last).

C. As for new/other stuff, I believe the order should be "cool effect" --> wonder found and created. However there's certainly no need for more wonders up to the Renaissance as the game seems choke full of options in those eras already. One can discuss Industrial or Modern wonders if we wish to, but I don't see too many necessary.

D. Policy unlokcs don't need to be balanced. They should be used to buff weaker trees and make sure wonders are useable (Piety unlock for religious wonders that need a religion). Strong Policy trees like tradition don't need a special wonder and of course duplication like Pyramids+Liberty aren't good.

 

[Funak]

D. Or you could maybe balance the trees so tradition isn't the nobrain choice?
Also didn't someone mention they were going to seperate piety from religion?

 

[mitsho]

I meant balanced in the way that every tree needs to have the same number of wonders it unlocks, just to clarify. But yes, I see that as a minor issue.

 

[mystikx21]

I would keep piety somewhat tied to religion. We can look to give it other effects. We'll get there though on that discussion. I would not worry much about wonder unlocks from policies as a balance question of the wonders themselves (but when it comes up, keep it in mind and freely kick it around).

 

[Stalker0]

Going back to my list of initial wonders, let me look at CEP's work:

I'm just going to make the blanket statement that I think we should keep vanilla's policy unlock for now, I don't think every wonder needs one.

Bananaue Rice Terraces: Is this a CEP special or a DLC addition? If its CEP I don't see the need for it. The hanging gardens gives food at the base, and 6 is already pretty good, I think 8 is a bit nuts

Great Library: Looks like it is unchanged otherwise that I can tell...or maybe it doesn't have the +3 science anymore?

Hanging Garden: I don't think this needs to change wholesale, probably just a slight nerfing..aka +5 food instead of +6 or something of that note.

Oracle: This one looks good, just a slight buff from the base version which looks good to me.

Parthenon: I don't think a slight culture buff will do the job on this one. Right now if I am going hardcore tourism I get it, else I don't...too many other things to spend hammers on. Either it gives a free building (making the hammers more worth it) or it gives a more solid push elsewhere.

Great Wall: Maybe its useful in MP, but the ability is just too lame for me to consider. Considering that walls are actually decent now for happiness control, what if the wonder provided a free walls in every city you have...AND never expired?

Pyramid: This is looking better, another possibility would be an engineer specialist...makes thematic sense and would be a very nice benefit that early in the game...since you can't normally get them until workshops.

Another idea would be like petra, it gets a bonus later in the game representing its one of the wonders still around in the base game.

Terracota_Army: Still seems pretty weak, perhaps it could use a free unit or something so that the hammer cost is discounted?

Statue of Zeus: No comment, I never get this wonder in base so I can't speak to it.

Temple of Artemis: Can someone tell me what the base wonder does (I don't have that DLC) so I know what to compare it to?

Stonehenge: This is a nerf overall imo. The 20 instant faith sounds nice, but at +3/faith vs +5 from the base that is only 10 turns...and then vanilla is better for the rest of time. I like stonehenge but I don't consider it a must have. An option also would be providing a free shrine to cut down the cost a bit.

Great Lighthouse: I think the change is nice...though I don't think it changes the wonder balance. Again, I like the vanilla GL there are just too many other wonders to consider. I will build it on water maps, not any other time.

What if it also provided some free work boats? Those are always a hammer drain early game, so I would be eager to build a wonder to recoup those costs?


Collossus: If gold becomes more valuable this wonder may balance itself. Right now, +5 or +10 gold doesn't change its value to me...but I consider a medium wonder in the vanilla that I do pick up sometimes.

 

[mystikx21]

Banuae was a CEP addition. It used to do something different (+1 food on hills in that city and border pop to hills in radius). That could mean an additional +3 food or +10, depending on the city. Laibela did something similar with faith on hills.

ToA in default - culture/GE point, 10% growth all cities, 15% production on ranged units.

 

[Funak]

ToA in default - culture/GE point, 10% growth all cities, 15% production on ranged units.

ToA in defaunt gives culture/GE point 10% FOOD in all cities, 15% production on ranged units. It does say growth (Bonus to food after removing food from population consumption) but it gives straight up food, like the aztec UB, which is rather insane tbh lategame with a few internal traderoutes it can be worth 15 food in just the capital, one of the best earlygame-wonders for sure imho.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Clarification #2

I think you guys may be misreading the spreadsheet.

The first tab, 'Wonders', has those columns; E -- P, that look like they tell which policy is unlocking the wonders. They don't. It is the next tab, 'Wonder_Unlocks', that shows the Policy that unlocks each wonder.

So it is this:

Wonder | Policy Unlock
Banaue_Rice_Terraces|Branch_Tradition
Terracotta_Army|Branch_Liberty
Temple_Artemis|Branch_Honor
Stonehenge |Branch_Piety
Angkor_Wat|Branch_Patronage
Uffizi|Branch_Aesthetics
Red_Fort|Branch_Exploration
Panama_Canal|Branch_Commerce
Hubble|Branch_Rationalism
Statue_Of_Liberty|Branch_Freedom
Itaipu_Dam|Branch_Order
Kremlin|Branch_Autocracy

Edit:
Although the Honor branch shows it gives Temple of Artemis, I actually put in place a check for the DLC that has the ToA so that if that doesn't exist, Honor gives the Statue of Zeus.

 

[Funak]

First thing you need to ask yourself about the policylocked wonder is if you want them to support the strengths of the policytree it represents or counter it's weaknesses. In CEP this isn't really clear, Terracotta counters liberty weaknesses for example (which felt like a good idea honestly, one of my favorites of the cepwonders)

 

[Stalker0]

Time to get back to this discussion.

I made comments above...the biggest one questioning the existing of B. Rice Terraces. I just think a slightly nerfed hanging gardens fills the food wonder void just fine, and there are already so many early game wonders (and I don't even have TOA in my version of the game).

I personally think it can be dropped.