Wonders biased towards the U.S.?

[Party]

like to think I beleive is what you mean, politly crrecting you,not to be rood

Fixed, thanks.
It's important to note that at the time of me typing that I had been up 32 straight hours.

 

[LAnkou]

to come back to the original subject...

There are several things to consider when choosing a wonder:
The concept (a military academy for broadway, cultural building for Rock, Broadway and Hollywood, etc...)
The visual (remember that every wonder have to appear and be recognisable on the map *cough*Mt Rushmoure*cough*)
The Tech enabling it (Radio gives the Eiffel Tower, The CN tower was built a lot later than the beginning of the radio)
The name (it must speak to everyone; Wall Street is known all over the world, the London Stock Exchange isn't something appealing)

So, why these wonders are what they are:
Pentagon: anybody that have look any american movie involving the US President must have heard this sentence: "Mr. President, it's the Pentagon, What's your decision?"
Internet: Well, internet is universal...
Manhattan Project: it's a project (hence the name) and speak to a lot of people. Moreover, there's no equivalent in any other nuclear country.
Appollo Program: Well, again it's a project. The goal of it was clearly reaching the moon. However, the Star Wars Project could have been fun. For those proposing the Spoutnik Project, remember there is already the best tech quote of the game for it. And it's quite logical: you discover how to build satellites (the quote), then, there is a project about reaching the moon (the Appollo Program). Very logical
Statue of Liberty: Tech Democracy, great visual. No replacement possible. Plus a must have.
United Nations: Self explanatory
Wall Street: Well, having any other one would feel strange. Moreover, you can't use the term "stock Echange" because of the english UB. That leaves only The City (UK) and La Bourse (France). Since Stock Exchange is translated into Bourse in French, that's a problem. Maybe the City would have been good, but wall street make more sense.
Broadway: This wonder gives musicals. And when you think about musicals, you think about broadway. Maybe can be replace by the Moulin Rouge and gives a Revue ressource, same period, same genre, but so much sexier!!!
Hollywood: People talk about Bollywood, but the one i would propose is CineCita in Italy. This set is so much more impressive. However, i can understant that some people prefer to have the classy letters than this amazing wonder than Citecita is.
Mt Rushmoure: i really think this one is about in game visual. i can't see any replacement that would look good...on all other plan, it's a poor choice. The Arc de Triumph in Paris may have the same effect, but the "fascist" tech doesn't match...
West Point: well, it's an officer school. it was that or a generic name. Maybe the Legionnaire training center would have been cool.
Rock and Roll: this wonder is more about the music industry and the faculty to get new songs than other things. The ingame visual seems to be graceland and remember that Sid is an Elvis fan. I would have prefer Abbey Road Studio with the fab four crossing the street as an ingame visuals...

 

[gps]

to come back to the original subject...

Is it biased? At first I though so and had a strange feeling about it. But after playing for some time, I started to like it. First of all, it's a game. It's an Amrican game. It's not the real world. Who cares?

Rock and Roll

Have a look at that one. You get lot's of records to sell and make lot's of cash. That's maybe not what I'd call a World Wonders as the Piramids - but that's what happens in the music industry. It's realistic. And I also like the idea, that my little people have Rock'n'Roll. Just sounds cool!

Mt Rushmoure

No that's a strange one: a United States' monument beeing made available with Fascism???

 

[brianshapiro]

No that's a strange one: a United States' monument beeing made available with Fascism???

Well theres an allegation that Mt Rushmore is a symbol of racial supremacy, go on Wikipedia and read for yourself. Although its pretty clear I think that no American except perhaps if its true the sculptor, really thought of it that way.

Of course, and I'm not kidding, there are many places in the Civilopedia that have what would be considered a left bias, and I'd be happy to discuss these if people want, and no I don't consider myself on the right. I'd hope other people noticed these things also.

But when things are made available by technologies in civ, it usually doesn't necessarily correspond with that technology, but says something about the time it was made in history and tries to link that with the fact that a certain tech arrived at the time also. After all, when you discover Fascism, you don't have to switch to a police state. Its your choice! Even if you don't switch to police state, you can still build Mt. Rushmore.

During the era of fascism in Germany and Italy, a lot of civic architecture in the US was inspired by fascist architecture, strict and rigid, often based on Roman designs. For example, a lot of US post offices are inspired by fascist architecture. One could say that a lot of other elements of public design, including statues and sculptures like Mt. Rushmore and designs on coins are fitting in with the same style. These were often government sponsored and funded. National emblems and mottos were reaffirmed and placed everywhere on civic architecture.

The so-called "post-office style" of the 1930s:

So this is probably what the designers had in mind.

One could also say that while Fascism rose in Germany, there was a lot of centralization in the US government, first to deal with the Great Depression, and next with the war. The US government increased its strength and authority over the states through economic and social programs. Patriotism and unity were promoted through government propaganda posters. Mt. Rushmore could be considered part of this general development. (One could note that the funding to Mt Rushmore was eventually cut off) There was increased cooperation between the government and corporations. And, there was supposedly a 'fascist plot' by businessmen in the US also to overthrow democratic government (don't remember the name).

If we're talking about motivation for the monument, despite what LAnkou says, the Arc de Triomphe has similarities to fascism, though obviously fascism was completely anachronistic, so would be incorrect. After all, the Arc de Triomphe was constructed so troops could march through it signaling French military victory. When Paris was taken, German troops marched through.

However it might make sense to associate Mt. Rushmore with the era of Fascism, depending on how you look at it--because as I said, the fashions and politics of fascism had an effect on the US also. Regardless, I don't think its really clear to most players, which is why the inclusion of Mt. Rushmore with Fascism seems more like bias than anything else. If you want to put in something understandable to players, put it there for clear and specific reasons.

 

[The Conquerer22]

so we agree that the game is biased towards america but its a game, made in the states, if it wornt made in the USA would the country that made it make the countries wonders more prominent like the states did or would they be getting more heat for it?

 

[gps]

Well theres an allegation that Mt Rushmore is a symbol of racial supremacy, go on Wikipedia and read for yourself.

That confirms my suspicion. Connecting the 'shrine of democracy' and the four guys protrayed there plus the political ideas the represent with fascism, for me as European seemed a little bit far fetched. But I am not the one having a problem with that - and as your post makes clear, there actually seems to be some controversy related to that topic. Obviously the game designers where aware of that and so the connection seems to be no accident but kind of a statement. Interesting! So even if the game is US-biased, it's no US-glorification.

 

[gps]

so we agree that the game is biased towards america but its a game, made in the states, if it wornt made in the USA would the country that made it make the countries wonders more prominent like the states did or would they be getting more heat for it?

Hmmm, maybe the world right now IS US-biased? One might like that or not, but US-music and US-movies right now ARE worldwide topsellers. US-fast-food like the one with the big yellow M is sold from Addis Abeba to Zagreb. If George W. decides to invade Irak 50 % of the other nations follow suite. We can discuss wheter we like that or not, but we have to accept the facts. We can discuss if US-music or movies are worth beeing called culture or if it's just commercial rubbish. But the fact remains, that this kind of 'culture' is a commercial force. And this commercial force is perfectly integrated into the game with the Hollywood, Broadway and Rock'n'Roll wonders.

 

[brianshapiro]

That confirms my suspicion. Connecting the 'shrine of democracy' and the four guys protrayed there plus the political ideas the represent with fascism, for me as European seemed a little bit far fetched. But I am not the one having a problem with that - and as your post makes clear, there actually seems to be some controversy related to that topic. Obviously the game designers where aware of that and so the connection seems to be no accident but kind of a statement. Interesting! So even if the game is US-biased, it's no US-glorification.

like i mentioned, there are a lot of political statements in the game and civilopedia text that would be considered leftist.

i really think the accusations of US bias are a little off, because think of designing a game like this from the developers perspective: are you really going to equate the CN Tower with the Pyramids, in historical importance for instance? But they did replace the Hoover Dam with the Three Gorges Dam. It would make sense for the next version of Civilization to have some Dubai skyscraper, but not the CN Tower, as I explained in my opinion.

 

[brianshapiro]

For game balance, there has to be a limited amount of wonders. The game designers, being American, obviously know more about American culture/monuments than those of other countries. Hence, when they needed a wonder for a specific gameplay purpose, the first thing they thought of that could do that was, suprise suprise, an American wonder, so they added that.
Its not like they have some plot to export American culture around the world and crush all others.


I agree with a speaker a few posts up, there does seem to be some left wing biased in the game which gave me the occasional chuckle.

I think the earlier Civilization games had more US bias , and they took a lot of steps to address this.. like replacing the Hoover Dam with the Three Gorges Dam. Getting rid of some wonders (I remember the Empire State Building). The intro song in the vanilla game is definitely not European/American. Although the BTS music is But of course, like you said, they know more about American culture so might miss something they should know.

 

[The Conquerer22]

why not consult people then

 

[GoodGame]

It probably has more to do with where the majority of the game's audience is located.

I'd also strike The Internet as a US invention. The US government capitalized on the internet going public, but per se it was partly the DOD's DARPA net, but it was also partly scientific communities across the world. The WWW / hypertext (HTTP / HTML) aspect was actually invented in Switzerland, IIRC.

Other than Wall Street, most of those mass media wonder were pioneered by the USA, and you can't deny that mid-20th C. was highly influenced by the USA, partly due to devastation that WW2 visited on the world. So definitely accurate history.

The Wall Street could be done culturally different, relative to the language version. The thing is that Wall Street is actually pre-USA, and a reflection of Dutch/French colonists.

This is something I've been thinking about and I wonder if anyone else feels this way. It seems like the wonders towards the end of the game are strongly biased towards the United States. Is the game biased... or have no other nations done anything of worth in the past hundred or so years?

Look at the wonders towards the end of the game:
Hollywood
Broadway
Rock N' Roll
The Internet
Wall Street
Mt. Rushmore

As it is, I have a little beef with Rock N' Roll and The Internet being considered wonders, as wonders were usually things you could build. I think the internet should be a technology, not a wonder. As for Rock ' Roll... I'm not sure. (But on a side note, I wish they would bring back the Great Wall as a wonder.) Well? What do you guys think? Biased or an accurate reflection of our current history?

 

[The Conquerer22]

I think they should do some market research, and cut out whatever others may not associate with the usa

 

[Party]

The intro song in the vanilla game is definitely not European/American. Although the BTS music is But of course, like you said, they know more about American culture so might miss something they should know.

Which is why I love in BTS you are able to cahnge the intro menu. I always have it set to Vanilla or WL.

 

[Florian]

Worldwide political and cultural influence in the 20th century were also "biased towards the U.S." There's a connection between these two facts.

 

[Ace of Gold]

you guys keep on saying how biased civiization, so how come firaxis already released civ 4 complete in europe but not in the U.S