Wonders biased towards the U.S.?

[BlackMage]

In the end, yes, the game is developed and marketed towards an American audience, and to that end they will use wonders that are easily recognizeable to an American audience. Myself, as at least a semi-well educated American, know that London's West End is a cultural, especially theater oriented center. If you were to ask Joe Schmoe American what London's West End was, he'd look at you like you were from Mars. In the end, many of these American landmarks are recognizeable around the world. Mt. Rushmore? Eh, kinda lame, yes. But everyone can tell you what Hollywood is.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

In the GAME, completing Apollo means that a civ is capable of not just space flight, but of human travel to and from a specific destination in space. Not only is it pretty "special", it's a necessary precursor to a victory condition- reaching Alpha Centauri.

Yeah, and in the GAME it can be built before you have researched satelites, but in REALITY landign on the moon is not much closer to interstellar travel than shooting a potatoe into orbit. I know it is all simplified but the modern era needs definitely more techs and different wonders...

 

[Dusty4prez]

yah and there is a flat earth society too. dont mean it has real credibility.

Yeah, there's actuall proof though about this like why is there no stars in the video? And atleast half the people I know don't believe there was a moon landing.

 

[yavoon]

Yeah, there's actuall proof though about this like why is there no stars in the video? And atleast half the people I know don't believe there was a moon landing.

then atleast half the ppl u know are utter morons.

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

Anyone who disbelieves the lunar landing needs to talk to these folks. The Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment has been pointing a laser at a reflector planted by Apollo 11 astronauts ever since 1969.

 

[Esox]

why is there no stars in the video?

Apparently, Charlton Heston was busy on location, so they got Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin instead.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Anyone who disbelieves the lunar landing needs to talk to these folks. The Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment has been pointing a laser at a reflector planted by Apollo 11 astronauts ever since 1969.

As far as i know the conspiracy theory it says only the "first" landing was faked and the the reflector was planted later.

 

[Seleukos Helios]

Most of the modern wonders are understandably American, due to the economic hegemony of the United States after WW2. However, when I first played civ4 one of the worst surprises I had was seeing Broadway as a world wonder. Is it really that important? Or culturally significant outside the USA? Hollywood and Rock and Roll have had a tremendous impact on modern pop culture world-wide. I’ve never thought of Broadway in similar terms, and still find it hard to. At the very least it could have been substituted by London’s West End, which is rather more famous.

On another note, does anyone else think the Manhattan Project should be a national wonder and the Apollo Program a world wonder? Every nation needs the equivalent of a Manhattan Project in order to build nuclear weapons, but an Apollo program is not necessary to build a starship (at least not as it is represented in civ4. If it required factories in space or on the moon, then that would make more sense).

Finally, the Pentagon’s equivalent in Greece is called ‘Pentagon’. Oddly enough it looks nothing like a pentagon. Those who named it were just probably inspired by the one in America.

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

Finally, the Pentagon’s equivalent in Greece is called ‘Pentagon’. Oddly enough it looks nothing like a pentagon. Those who named it were just probably inspired by the one in America.

That's hilarious. Is there also a NORAD inside Mount Olympus?

On another note, does anyone else think the Manhattan Project should be a national wonder and the Apollo Program a world wonder?

Absolutely agree. Manhattan Project is a screwed up concept in the game.

On a side note, I wouldn't mind seeing more future wonders. Like a Bering Straight Bridge, Mars Landing, or a Mile-High Sky Scraper. Or how about cooperative wonders like an Internation Space Station?

 

[Tulkas12]

My only real response to this thread is a natural concern that a video game is being taken a little too seriously. Broadway and rushmore should go maybe, but America has played pwner with the world since WWII and generally gotten away with it, so. . .

As for the more recent moon comments? Silliness, I think it needs to be let go too. If it was a conspiracy it was such a good one that all the commies complaining are just pissed Mother Russsia didn't think of it first. (satyrical comments btw( before the messages start streaming in)).

 

[vsipinen]

You are talking about the state not the actual building

Well, at least I thought that I was talking about a building -
a building apparently called "State Hermitage" in the text
I quoted (is the Civ4 wonder "Hermitage" different building
than that "State Hermitage" ?). In any case I was not
talking about any state.

 

[LuvToBuild]

I would agree with what seems to be the majority opinion that Mt. Rushmore was a poor choice for the kind of wonder that it is supposed to represent. A better choice would certainly be the Red Square given that the purpose of this wonder is to reduce war weariness. The Red Square is famous for the annual May Day parades during the Cold War. One of the purposes of those parades was to instill a sense of pride and patriotism in the Russian people, thereby reducing war weariness.

Personally, I think all of the national wonders should be more generic. The Palace, National Epic, and Heroic Epic are pretty generic already. The others could all use a bit of work. I've always been a bit confused by Scotland Yard. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Scotland Yard primarily a law enforcement agency? Shouldn't this have been the Central Intelligence Agency? Yeah I know. I just added yet another American wonder, lol. So sue me and call it the KGB, MI5, or Mossad. The point is, if its going to be named after something specific then it should at least be something that is easily recognizable as a spy agency shouldn't it? I say call it Intelligence Agency or National Security Bureau or something similar but generic.

I think Wall Street should probably be called Central Bank or maybe National Bank. Its purpose in the game is to increase the nation's wealth and since just about every country these days has one, it makes the most sense to me. West Point should be changed to Military Academy for pretty much the same reasons. Its purpose is to increase the experience level of the units it produces and most nations today have something similar.

As for the Pentagon, I think it should be replaced with the Sun Tzu Art of War (or maybe the Sun Tzu Military Academy). I would concede that the Pentagon is closer to being a wonder in terms of it being a physical structure and well known in the world but it hasn't had the same influence as Sun Tzu. Those in the Pentagon themselves have no doubt been influenced by Sun Tzu. Plus, I believe gaining access to the Sun Tzu wonder with the discovery of Feudalism (the same tech it required in CIVIII) and having its effects be the same as the Pentagon now, would make it a more important wonder than the Pentagon. One of the nice things about the Pentagon is the two XP gain without Theocracy. Your unit production would enjoy this benefit for a much longer period of time and could do so while having the Free Religion civic. For those that finish games quickly, it would make the benefit relevant since they might actually build it before the game ends.

 

[marioflag]

Personally i don't agree with the original OP, it's true that there are 13 american wonders but civ4 covers nearly 6000 years of history were the last 200 years have 1/5 of the total turns in a game (marathon speed).
The last century has been the american century with american have egemony on military, economic and "cultural" (if we can call Mcdonalds,jeans and cocacola culture).
Personally i think that there are amrican wonders in civ4 that can not be replaceable by others for example instead of pentagon,wall street and hollywood what would you use cannes festival LOL, or german ministery of defence or london stock exchange?
In the last century it's normal that there are so much american wonders because there is nothing comparable in the world or in europe.
Let's be clear i'm not moved by american patriottism because i'm italian and live in Italy but in my opinion there is no bias in favour of USA a lot of posts in this threa have an antiamerican bias.
If we see european capitals there is nothing of 20th century you can call it a wonder, Rome is a beatiful city with monuments and probably should have got more "wonders" in ancient eras of CIV4 but if we see to palace built in modern times there is no palace you can call it "wonder", same discourse for other european cities.Probably London deserved more wonders considered that 18th and 19th century were English Centuries.A Big Ben for example could be a good choice.
About some american wonders i agree that they don't deserve their place.
Mount Rushmore really doesn't deserve this place considered also that it can be built with fascism so an italian or german wonder would be more appropriated.Broadway is really a shame that is a wonder i' sure a lot of us never heard about it why not introduce Olympiads instead of it?
About the others in my opinion there is no choice
Pentagon,Wall Street,Hollywood,Rock and Roll, Manhattan Project,SDI,Internet,Apollo Program, anyone can tell me anything that can substitute these wonders and can be more representative?

 

[Bushface]

Some suggested renames, non-nationalistic :-
Globe Theatre = National Theatre
Oxford University = National Research Centre, or simply Research Centre.
Wall Street = Stock Exchange
West Point = Military Academy
Scotland Yard = Intelligence Agency.
Pentagon = Defence Ministry.
Manhattan Project = Atomic Weapons project.
Mt. Rushmore - delete. Make Defence Ministry a National Wonder, reducing war weariness and giving +2 XP to only the first civ to build one. Possibly exempt this from the "two Nat. Wonders per city" rule. I don't expect this to happen, but it's an idea.

 

[Seleukos Helios]

That's hilarious. Is there also a NORAD inside Mount Olympus?

Heh, now that you mentioned it, I don't know. I've heard rumors of Cold War military installations inside certain Greek mountains. If any of them are true, and if the usual military creativity in picking names prevailed in such a case, it's possible.
North Aegean Aerospace Defense Command

I think the International Space Station would make a great wonder. Concerning that, the Apollo Program and the Space Race in general, I just had an idea. What if the spaceship was not constructed on Earth, but directly in space (as shown in the first two civ games) with factories and mines on the moon (as would be more realistic for a project of such scale). The Apollo project would open up the moon as a special map for colonization (of very small size), where the initial settler and military units would be constructed on your cities on Earth at great cost. Other civs would struggle to establish their own presences on the moon, and controlling it militarily could bring back that spaceship cancellation feature of civ and civII in a more exciting way. Maybe it could be a feature in civV one day. But I feel I'm going off-topic.

National wonders would make more sense if they weren't named like they are now (there's an Oxford University in almost every country), but I can't help feeling there's something special about them, knowing their history, even if I know they are not unique.
I'm also not impressed by Mt. Rushmore, though in light of most of the previous posts this comment is probably superfluous.

 

[x23]

Rock and Roll and Mt. Rushmore aren't really wonders and shouldn't be there

 

[The Conquerer22]

Hollywood... to be honest, MOST movies come from Hollywood. Perhaps they should add Bollywood as an alternative .

False, Bollywood makes the most movies per year but the only movies we north americands and possibly other countries are used to seeing is hollywood blockbusters and independent films. Though bollywood makes more movies per year wereas hollywood creates more high tech movies ( like graphics/animation)

 

[The Conquerer22]

I agree with x23

 

[The Conquerer22]

seleukow helios, they wouldnt pick mount olympus, it would be too odviouse, because where would be the one natural wonder that most of Greece took much pride in historacly, yes it was mount olympus

 

[The Conquerer22]

Some suggested renames, non-nationalistic :-
Globe Theatre = National Theatre
Oxford University = National Research Centre, or simply Research Centre.
Wall Street = Stock Exchange
West Point = Military Academy
Scotland Yard = Intelligence Agency.
Pentagon = Defence Ministry.
Manhattan Project = Atomic Weapons project.
Mt. Rushmore - delete. Make Defence Ministry a National Wonder, reducing war weariness and giving +2 XP to only the first civ to build one. Possibly exempt this from the "two Nat. Wonders per city" rule. I don't expect this to happen, but it's an idea.

well manhattan project, keep the name, clobe theater, keep the name, Oxford university keep the name or create NRC as u mentioned and have a requirement of like 5 research centers, no defense ministry, and I agree, Mount Rushmore, delete it