Worker first, then Settler strategy

[Alexfrog]

Hammers: Thats what mines are for. Better than forests.

Oh yeah, and if you can get the pyramids (I did, in my game here on monarch, due to early economic strength), when the cottages become towns, I can make them all +1 production.

Im even not caring that I clearcut the areas in my initial couple cities borders, in terms of health impact. Saving three forests gives +1, which is one resource, and youll get several heath resources, plus granary plus fresh water...

My city 2 got me gold and silver, my city 3 got pigs, and city 4 goes up toward spice and something else.

200BC I have a big tech lead, 4 wonders, finally got a religion (Taoism), biggest size empire, highest score by almost 200 over 2nd (like 900 to 700), getting new techs in like 3-4 turns at 80% science.

This compares to my previous starts which I did about the same things (maybe not quite as perfectly) but waited longer for the initial expansion, and they left me near even with the AIs.

Unfortunately I neglected military a bit late on (needed to build it more in the 1000BC on timeframe, so I am in an annoying battle with alexander where we are trading archers, though I have Chu-ko-nu coming out very soon to help with that. I wouldnt care about being attacked if the bastards didnt pillage oyu, I can defend the cities, just not all the landmass. Gotta work on that more for next game.

It would seem that this strategy could leave you a bit short on hammers later on. With the demise of bonus grasslands and flatland mines, hills and forests are the only source of hammers (well, specialists are too, but you can't run a whole economy on them). Chopping's a must, but you can only chop so much before you're left high and dry. Not having those forests around later to chop for improvements and wonders could be a bit of a pain.

I'd also wonder about your city placement. Rushing settlers just outside your borders and plopping down cities before the lions get them (CXXC?) probably isn't compatible with optimally placing cities to grab the best resources and expand your borders. What kind of results are you getting from this placement in 1AD? Are your early cities optimally viable? Are you still able to expand your borders during hte land grab?

 

[Dairuka]

This strategy is great if you pop a hut that provides you with enough money to last 30 turns without going poor.

However; it's even better if you're smart and only do it up to 3 cities, and instead, use the extra cities to rapidly produce workers for an awesome early research/production lead. Just remember to use Bronze Working/Slavery/Wood Chopping to rush those second/third city workers!

 

[Volstag]

Y'all should check out the following thread on Apolyton:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141777

Summary: ICS might not be as strong as before, but it isn't dead.

 

[Astax]

This can prove a good start. Im happy to have an alt strategy. But how would you deal in a starting location with floodplains and lot of jungle. Cutting forests down would suck I'm not a chopper at all but I'll give it a shot! I think some guy was using soemthing simular agianst me. He had a quick start but screwed it in the end He had fast expansion thou and he did put his city on a hill. Which I usualy never do.

 

[Puppeteer]

I kind of like this idea. I don't think I'd do it to 4 cities or send the settler out without so much as a scout, but I think I'll try a variation:

Worker, settler, (w/bronze working, and as remconius pointed out in another thread you start with +8c from the palace), but send the warrior or scout to make sure the path to found the city is safe before sending the settler. (Done ahead of time, of course, so the settler starts moving as soon as he's made.)

I'll have to experiment to see if I want do repeat to make city#3. As long as the only barbs are animals this should be okay. But I want little or no overlap of city radii.

On the other hand, what happens when an AI exploring warrior happens by? Has anyone had them take an undefended city in the early years?

 

[Alexfrog]

I kind of like this idea. I don't think I'd do it to 4 cities or send the settler out without so much as a scout, but I think I'll try a variation:

Worker, settler, (w/bronze working, and as remconius pointed out in another thread you start with +8c from the palace), but send the warrior or scout to make sure the path to found the city is safe before sending the settler. (Done ahead of time, of course, so the settler starts moving as soon as he's made.)

I'll have to experiment to see if I want do repeat to make city#3. As long as the only barbs are animals this should be okay. But I want little or no overlap of city radii.

On the other hand, what happens when an AI exploring warrior happens by? Has anyone had them take an undefended city in the early years?

I think city 3 is good, I am unsure about city 4 very early.

The AI warriors dont take your city.
At least not on monarch, and at 2000BC.

 

[WoundedKnight]

It would seem that this strategy could leave you a bit short on hammers later on. With the demise of bonus grasslands and flatland mines, hills and forests are the only source of hammers (well, specialists are too, but you can't run a whole economy on them).

Not true. Improved watermills give 2 hammers, and mines give 3. There are plenty of excellent options to replace forests for productivity.

 

[Marquis Mark]

I think it is a fabulous strategy and greatly appreciate Alex sharing it.

I am trying it right now and am already far, far ahead of where I was in my prior games by 2000 BC. I am doing this strategy on a rolling basis -- harvesting the trees at one city, then moving to the next and doing the same thing. Yes, you have to be very careful to ensure that your settlers have an escort (thankfully I popped 2 scouts in goody huts, and my 2nd city is pumping out warriors), but this is a fabulous way to get an accelerated start at a time when you most desparately need productivity. No, this strategy isn't for all situations, and may find limited utility for some players. But it is still an ingenious strategy to keep in one's repertoire for times when the situation is conducive.

This seems like it may suffer more in MP where enemies are less forgiving. Thoughts?

 

[Dairuka]

Mark. If you restrict yourself to 2-3 cities. This can be a viable MP strategy. Just be sure to have Slavery as a Civic so you can rush some Archers in every city the moment you see somebodies warrior enter your territory. =(

There are better MP strategies though.

 

[ndthsmdy]

Just 'cause it seems pretty relevant, I was playing a Deity game earlier today--my Scout got whacked by a barbarian ARCHER in 3650 BC.

Maybe an aberration, but I'm not sure the Worker>Settler strat is going to fly up there...

 

[abj9562]

Interesting strategy for Prince and below. However, on Monarch and higher levels, I think the Barbarians and maintainance will become increasingly serious problems. If MP then a major malfunction if a warrior or 2 comes along. At Emperor and above your probably roasted on a barbarian firepit.

 

[Yushal]

Yeah, the problem is getting your settlers to their positions safely. Plus, you must be willing to chop the forests, which will likely cost you later on in the game via slowed growth and limited improvement choices for your capital.

It does take very long to get your empire jump-started in any way, generally, tho, so the tradeoffs are likely worth it.

 

[WoundedKnight]

This seems like it may suffer more in MP where enemies are less forgiving. Thoughts?

No, this is a fabulous strategy, although it needs some modification. It isn't clear to me what you see as the downside as it beats a conventional start in almost every way. In fact, I predict that some variant of this will be a key in successful MP online strategies in the future, as well as for GOTM winners. There is simply no other strategy that can really compete with it.

I am currently in a game using a modified version of this strategy, and from the beginning, my score has been 2-3 times that of any of the other civs. My early tech path was bronzeworking ->monotheism (for the religion) -> pottery (for cottages) ->alphabet (to trade techs).

Here are the important takehome messages.

First, the chopping of lumber is key to productivity at certain times. Later in the game when cities are well developed, the 30 productivity from forest chopping adds little. But early on when cities are producing just one or 2 hammers per turn, lumber chopping can really jump start your civ. This can be used for many different things -- settlers, workers, wonders, etc. But it makes the most sense to chop the trees early as this can put you way, way ahead at a time when other players are spending 17-25 idle, stagnant turns waiting to pump out a lone settler.

Second, it makes the most sense to use tree chopping for workers and settlers, NOT for other units or buildings. The reason is simple: while building military units or buildings, your cities continue to grow. While building workers and settlers, they do not grow at all. Other things being equal, it is a tremendous advantage to shorten the build time of settlers and workers, because this minimizes the time that your city is stagnating and not growing.

Third, I employ this strategy on a rolling basis. I didn't stop at 4: I went up to 15 cities this way on my large pangaea map with great success. Of course, you have to diversity. I pumped settlers and workers out of some cities by chopping trees, and after the trees were gone, I developed the economy by building cottages and mines, developing resources, and later, building watermills. While I was chopping trees in one city, another was building military units, another was building missionaries, and yet another was building city improvements. You get the idea. By doing this, I was able to keep research constantly at 90-100% and had a very solid economy.

Fourth, I reserved forests around a couple cities for wonder building. Forest chopping is a fabulous way for non-industrious civs to get key wonders very quickly. Say you want to build a wonder with speed doubled with stone, and have stone (while other players don't) due to your rapid expansion (+100% build speed). You also switch to organized religion (+25% build speed: it DOES work on wonders, not just regular buildings, I saw from my current game). This gives you a +125% hammer bonus. For harvesting one square of forest you get not 30 hammers toward your wonder, but 67 hammers! Harvest a few squares of forest, and of course no one can keep up with you in wonder building. For the next wonder, go to another city you have plopped down in another area of forest. I was able to get every wonder that I wanted. I had to be selective, but got stonehenge -- hanging gardens -- notre dame -- chichen itza -- etc. etc. on a large map with 8 other civilizations! This is such a good technique that honestly I am happier with non-industrious civs (expansive/financial is how I played my current game -- the boost allows fast granaries and makes up for any health benefit of all the tree chopping), and will likely find little use for the industrious trait in the future.

Finally, the concept that taking down forests will harm productivity is nonsense. Forests offer little food, often even enough for sustenance, and so cities that rely on forests for productivity often stagnate. Upgraded watermills give +2 production, as well as economic and food benefits of flatland. The forest productivity is easily replaceable. Chopping the trees has helped me to vastly increase, not decrease, my city productivity by allowing much more time for growth, bypassing large amounts of stagnant time waiting for worker/settler production without this strategy.

Through this whole game, all my settlers have had military escorts, and my borders have been well defended. Those who have declared war on me have been quickly crushed. I have maintained a constant flow of gold, high (90-100% research -- now way ahead of the other civs by the mid middle ages), and city development, and have gotten all the wonders I wanted.

My thanks to Alexfrog for bringing the forest harvesting idea to my attention.

Best wishes,

Falconhurst

 

[Rustypipe]

This works great for lower difficulty settings but once you hit monachy + the barbs and comps get rabid with attacking units. Espically if you have an aggressive player.

Also I find this does give you a strong start but you usally end up sacraficing the first 3 relgions hurting your gold / research in the long run. Even though you would still make mad coin with Financial trait and cottages everywhere a person that expanded a little slower and managed to land 1-3 starting relgions with the financial trait I would think would still out research you as not only do you make more happyness and money from all your reglions the shrines give you a 10% research bonus, and if your so lucky to land all 3 relgions thats 30% more research and 30 gold per turn later down the road.

All though I haven't tested who would research faster espically on higher diffs between the 2 stragies i would think that maintaince costs would get high unless you kept it to 2-3 cities. If anyone has tested it and has some hard numbers let me know as I would be curious to see the findings.

 

[WoundedKnight]

Also I find this does give you a strong start but you usally end up sacraficing the first 3 relgions hurting your gold / research in the long run. All though I haven't tested who would research faster espically on higher diffs between the 2 stragies i would think that maintaince costs would get high unless you kept it to 2-3 cities. If anyone has tested it and has some hard numbers let me know as I would be curious to see the findings.

No, I still got Judaism first with this strategy with a non-spiritual nation. I missed out on Hinduism (as expected) but got Judaism no problem.

As I explained in my post above, when you have many cities, the maintenance costs more than pay for themselves as long as you let some cities develop cottages etc. If a city costs 4 maintenance and is generating 6 gold, obviously you are in the black. Any larger civ of course will have higher maintenance costs, but if well run, will also have income that exceeds maintenance. The key is allowing at least some of your cities to develop while continuing rapid expansion.

 

[pilight]

Think about trying this with an Indian civ and the fast worker. They start with mining so you can get to the bronzeworking right away. You could really jump out fast!

 

[WoundedKnight]

i would think that maintaince costs would get high unless you kept it to 2-3 cities. If anyone has tested it and has some hard numbers let me know as I would be curious to see the findings.

Well, I currently have 21 cities using this strategy. My population, score, and land area are 2.5-3 times that of the closest competitors. I have recently taken 5 cities from the Americans and Chinese, resulting in some increase in upkeep, and I have recently switched civics, forcing me to temporarily drop my research to 80% (it has been 90-100% most of the game). Here are my economy stats, playing Victoria (exp/fin), large pangaea:

The commerce for all of my cities is between 3 and 94 gold each. The average is in the mid-40s, and only 4 cities (those I recently conquered) are below 10.

Research 80% 646
Culture 0% 305
Gold 20% 194
Total income (taxes) 194

city maintenance 116:
distance cost 56
number of cities 60

civic upkeep 54:
universal suffrage 18
free speech 0
emancipation 0
decentralization 8
organized religion 28

inflation 36

total expenses 207

As you can see, the cities very quickly pay for themselves and more. Dividing expenses by roughly 21 cities, we can calculate that the average city even for this very large empire costs approximately 10 gold per turn, but is generating over 40 commerce that can be divided however you choose. Even with my choice of civics (organized religion and universal sufferage are moderately expensive) the cities more than pay for themselves. Furthermore, I just barely switched to universal suffrage, and expect to see a large financial windfall when the many cottages develop into towns in the near future.

Of course, there is much that can be done to optimize this situation further. I have built no courthouses yet, which would cut maintenance by half. I have not built the forbidden palace yet, and Versailles is under construction, both of which will further cut costs. I am on my way to communism/police state which will eliminate the distance cost (56) altogether. So when my upgrades are completed, the city maintenance expenses will drop to approximately a quarter of their current value (distance cost gone, and the remaining 60 city number cost cut in half by courthouses), plus the benefit of Versailles -- although I am not sure if Versailles impacts distance maintenance, city number maintenance, or both).

As to the argument of whether organized is a good trait, the figures clearly show that it would not be. Even with my near-ideal civics, I am paying only 54 for upkeep, and organized would save me approximately 27. In contrast, I am raking in 150-200 per turn in extra commerce because of the financial trait. They aren't even in the same league.

Then there is the inflation cost -- I don't really understand what causes inflation or what to do about it, and would appreciate any explanation from others. It is a modest but significant expense.

All but the most underdeveloped cities will pay for themselves and far more, as this example demonstrates. Those who think that CIV is a game favoring those with few cities are uninformed. Although costs ramp up with increasing city numbers, most cities can more than pay for their own costs with even minimal development, in addition to adding research, cultural, and productivity benefits. Furthermore, much can be done to defray even the modest maintenance costs that are incurred.

Hope this helps,

WoundedKnight

 

[Mujadaddy]

Thanks, for everything, WK ... I guess "Organized" is why Rome gets Praetorians

 

[elderotter]

tried it, my warrior/scout tripped a goody hut and found 3 barbarian warrriors he killed one..but the other 2 took my undefended cities..lol next strategy!

 

[Mujadaddy]

Oh, elderotter, that happens ALL the time in Civ1 ...