World History Mod development thread

[kevinman4404]

I think it will be wise to do music for the civs that can be easily done, however I won`t spend a ton of time on it. The mod isn`t that popular, in the sense that if I included suggestions for music, they wouldn`t stir debate. So when the time comes I encourage you to recommend music.

Here is a nice raw generic list of units for Europe, Native America, Mesoamerica and Inca:

Warrior
Axeman
Spearman
Javelineer
Light Swordsman
Heavy Swordsman
Man at Arms
Guisarme?
Maceman
Arqebusier
Foot Knight
Pikeman
Halberdier
Musketman
Rifleman
Grenadier
Gatling Gun
Line Infantry
Archer
Composite/Improved Archer?
Crossbowman
Arbalest
Longbowman
Chariot
Horse Archer/Camel Archer/etc.
Mounted Infantry/Companion Cavalry/Hand Cavalry
Lancer
Heavy Lancer
Pistolier
Knight
Hussar
Dragoon
Cuirassier
Battering Ram
Mangonel? (unlikely)
Trebuchet
Ballista
War Elephant
Siege Tower
Hand Cannoneer
Bombard
Culverin
Cannon
Mortar
Petard
Horse Artillery
Scorpion
Field Artillery
Partisan
Guerilla
Balloon
Work Boat
Penteconter? (Greek only)
Bireme
Trireme
Quinquireme
Early Galley
Hulk
Monitor
Gun Hulk
Gun Galley
Galleass?
Early Frigate
Chebeck?
Frigate
Archipelago Frigate
Carrack
Caravel
Galleon
War Galleon
Two-Decker
Three-Decker
Privateer
Ship of the Line
Scout
Improved Scout
Explorer
Spy
Slave
Worker

Native Clubman
Native Axeman
Native Spearman
Native Javelineer???
Native Swordsman???
Native Slinger
Native Archer
Native Longbowman?
Improved Native Warrior
Native Mounted Warrior or Archer
Native Musketman or Rifleman
Native Mounted Musketman or Rifleman
Native Infantry/Guerilla
Native Cavalry?
Native Ram?
Native Scout
Improved Native Scout
Native Explorer???
Native Worker
Canoe

Mesoamerican Clubman
Mesoamerican Spearman
Mesoamerican/Olmec Axeman
Olmec Phalanx
***Olmec units end here***
Mesoamerican Swordsmen (Macahuitl)
Mesoamerican Heavy Swordsmen?
Mesoamerican Slinger
Mesoamerican Archer/Spear-Thrower
Mesoamerican AtlAtl
Mesoamerican Guerilla
Mesoamerican Scout
Mesoamerican Worker
Raft?

Incan Bola Warrior
Incan Clubman
Incan Spearman
Incan Short Swordsman
Incan Slinger
Incan Scout
Incan Guerilla
Incan Worker
Raft

More research needed: Mesoamerican/Incan War Archer

What-if units: Maceman, Phalanx?, Pikeman (for Mesoamerica and Inca?)

 

[Gooblah]

Why do we need Native-specific units? Why not just have a Native promotion automatically given to Native Civilizations? It would cut down on a lot of work.

 

[kevinman4404]

I know I've cut out a lot of work for myself. However, the simple fact is that Native American armies, and mesoamerican armies, are nothing like regular European ones. (there will also definitely be an African set, and perhaps modifications to Asia, Muslim).

Actually, honestly, I've already done/found artwork for the majority of North and South America. There's a lot more artwork available than meets the eye.

Although the games are somewhat fun, I've always hated the extremely generic direction firaxis has taken. I do plan on making it into a much more historical game.

As for unit stats, I already have the basics completed, but I am completely avoiding balancing for now. I just want to get something up and running, and work on it like the creators of RFC Europe are working on their mod. Once a very basic version is up/running I will attach all updates to posts.

I also need to start think of whether I'm going to force a literal representation of history, or create cause and effect (those are my only two options). I am thinking both. Cause and effect will be hard, but it is obviously going to be needed, or it would be more like a movie than a game. Let me know if you have any ideas on how this should be implemented.

For example, civs like Canada/USA would be colonial breakoffs, which would be pretty easy to do. But for the rest, idk

 

[GeneralSpecific]

@Kev,

Sorry man! I know it has been a while but I always check back cause' I never lose interest in this game or project. I've been studying many things, mainly Political Economy, and I do intend to finish up the logic of the civics...I just have to regather my thoughts as it has been so long. I am still on board, and regarding my last post, it was a feeble attempt to ensure that ideas being developed immediately could, in their own special way, be affected by civic systems. But, all that aside, I will finish the ideas shortly.

-The Gen

 

[kevinman4404]

@Generalspecific: alrighty, thank you

Just so you guys know progress is being made I have finished artwork for Panther Muskets and Rifle Scout

I have also gathered some more stuff, and solidified some of the ideas

I have also been playing other stuff to establish direction, and I must say I am fairly pleased with how RFC Europe is coming along. This mod's engine will be based off of RFC Europe's

 

[No mercy Means]

I can help with the civilopidia I have world history in 7th period

 

[GeneralSpecific]

@ Kev,

I have developed a civic system but I would be interested in a way to discuss it, but I am not sure if this is the thread to do so in...I am not always confident in my developments because I prefer discussion in order to develop the ideas further...

 

[Chiyochan]

your mod is really too big, I would suggest making a brand new engine and going off in your own direction, Civ is a fun game, but in a mod of this scale, its nothing but a handy cap, and most of the graphics that we use in todays civ aren't even owned by fraxis anyway, they are made by the mod community.

 

[nutnut]

your mod is really too big, I would suggest making a brand new engine and going off in your own direction, Civ is a fun game, but in a mod of this scale, its nothing but a handy cap, and most of the graphics that we use in todays civ aren't even owned by fraxis anyway, they are made by the mod community.

It's easier to run it off Civ4 than make a new engine. Bear in mind that this is historically accurate merger between Rhyes and Fall and Rise of Manind basically.

 

[kevinman4404]

@Chiyochan

your mod is really too big, I would suggest making a brand new engine and going off in your own direction

is a bit of a paradox. I agree that it is a bit of a hindrance but I simply do not have the knowledge or team members to completely rewrite civ. RFC Europe engine does just what I need it to- I tested it out and it runs things 90% of how I want it to.

@Nutnut, well, I don't even remember which mod rise of mankind is to be honest (I'll have to look it up again), and while I am using RFCE's engine to make things work deep down, it is just so big and packed full of ideas I really can't say it will be similar to anything, except RFCE in its early stages. But I'm sure it will take ideas from a lot of places. EDIT: I took a look and I have to say this won't be in any way similar to Rise of Mankind. Maybe in theory it would be similar, but like when it says "it is an attempt to make civ4 more historically accurate," for example, the way this mod will do it will put it in a totally different ballpark. Really the only similarity is that they are both supposed to be big expansions, though this one will undoubtedly be bigger and longer to make.

Perhaps it is impossibly big, but we're not thaaat far from a N/S America outline being released.

In terms of continent creation (research, finding units, making graphics, etc.) North America is sort of almost done. Europe, though a big undertaking, will be very easy. Africa, while it will have some holes, will have all research already done by the time I start on it. Asia, will be hard. I am and plan to be filtering civ ideas for them for the next several weeks. This is currently the bulkiest continent for me to do. And there will be a TON of holes to fill in. I don't think a lot of people really know a ton about Asian history, military, and little details needed to fill in the units, buildings, etc., so I will need help when that time comes.

In terms of the mod itself, starting with RFCE's engine should go smoothly. Getting an outline out will take a while but will also hopefully go smoothly. Artwork for me is not much of a problem at all, and research, other than Asia, is well under way. The two areas that I expect to fail on are UHVs (a few hundred civs, each requiring a lot of time on coding). That will not exist for a longgg time. Also, for the same reason, a lot of features will not be present for a long time, and some never. But I hope to have the most basic fleshing features there.

The map has been indefinitely postponed, it is pretty stuck where it is at this point

Also, I have cut the modern portion of the mod for now, and you cannot expect that to really even be started for 3 years or so. There are simply too many modern civs, and too much turn time, though honestly, earlier civs are really starting to add up. Another problem with modern civs is modern civs can see the whole world, while civs until then cannot. So a 1700s civ might see (and have to wait for) 10 civs, while a modern civ would have to wait for all 50 or so.

@No Mercy Means- thanks. On civjunction there is a thread for civpedia entries. Feel free to do any other than the two that have already been done, though they can certainly be edited.

General Format:
-history: origins, important happenings, decline
-culture, etc., other fluff
-tactics (and perhaps mention of uu/ub/etc.)
I don't care how you do it but just make sure you end with a small paragraph on tactics.


@Generalspecific: excellent! anywhere is fine. If you want discussion with a lot of people, I really don't know how you would do it. CivJunction has a thread and would be a good place for focused discussion but it really doesn't get any viewers, like at all. Here it would get traffic but it would be hijacked quite often I think.

I think you should probably put it in the approrpriate thread and we can try and divert some attention to that until it is confirmed.



and finally, I have added a ton of UUs to N/S America, but they will be narrowed back down... like in some cases there are 10+ UUs, and maybe only 10+ units in the first place. So this will go down, significantly. Trust me, it won't stay like that, I just had to write the ideas down so I could research them later EDIT: updated UU section on CivJunc reflecting additions to North American UUs... again, not all will stay

 

[kevinman4404]

For anyone interested in the progress of the mod and just seeing things going on, there is now a Mod To-Do-List at...
CivJunction/WHM forum (link in front page of this thread)/WORLD HISTORY MOD MAIN PAGE > 2nd post

Feel free to help out on anything you can! This is the peak of concreteness so far. I will be adding more to the list as I think of stuff, but that is the vast bulk of the work that needs to be done.

@Moopoo: I am sorry, the settler/war map examples and template are taking longer than expected. I would have had them to you a few days ago but I just realized I am supposed to have 10 colours, not 6, for the war maps (which is good, because I felt I needed more colours)

This means I have to redo the examples (as well as, on the side, all the ones I have done so far).

 

[moopoo]

not a worry, my man. get it ready when you can.

 

[Gooblah]

Kevin:

The offensive pact is running into a fatal error, somewhere in the C++; I've been perusing through it, and have made some changes with no luck. That area is stalled until I figure out exactly what is going on.

At any rate, I've been working on Civics, as those too are mostly C++ changes. This has all the Civics I can come up with, and I've balanced them as well as I could. This chart has differences from various thoughts posted in this thread. In the interest of not overwhelming the player while still maintaining realism, I think I've done a good job. There are 12 Civic Categories (Currency, Economy, Labor, Institiutional, Legal, Suffrage, Executive, Organization, Religious, Military, Foreign, and Environmental), split into three broad categories (Monetary, Government, and Policy). Within these 12 categories, there are 54 Civics, more than enough IMO. I also have a list of tags that need to be added: these are minimal. Admittedly, the current Civic files give a lot of flexibility, having perused them.

 

[kevinman4404]

@Gooblah: to avoid disappointing anyone, I have to say that while ideas will come from everyone, I had given the job and final say of the civics offering to Gen.S. (within certain bounds, ie my main goals for the mod), so I'm just saying it's not really up to me what is used. I will, like I will for everything else, read it and check over it but yeah, I realize I left him in charge of developping and taking in ideas for civics, and I wouldn't take it from him

Just so you know, you put a shortcut to an xml file in that .zip folder, so it is currently unviewable. You'll probably have to re-attach

And it is quite awckward to say this, but it seems he has developped something- again, whatever comes forward for civics is more or less up to him- so I encourage you to discuss with him any differing ideas, and discuss/critique eachother's systems, and help generate discussion

So hopefully everything goes well... I agree we are in need of a very flexible/thorough civics system. Though, the number of civics, or how different it is, are not an object to me.

 

[Gooblah]

@Gooblah: to avoid disappointing anyone, I have to say that while ideas will come from everyone, I had given the job and final say of the civics offering to Gen.S. (within certain bounds, ie my main goals for the mod), so I'm just saying it's not really up to me what is used. I will, like I will for everything else, read it and check over it but yeah, I realize I left him in charge of developping and taking in ideas for civics, and I wouldn't take it from him

Yeah, that's fine, this was just a compilation for my thoughts.

Just so you know, you put a shortcut to an xml file in that .zip folder, so it is currently unviewable. You'll probably have to re-attach.

Dang, I'll change that, sorry - but it'll happen tonight at the earliest.

And it is quite awckward to say this, but it seems he has developped something- again, whatever comes forward for civics is more or less up to him- so I encourage you to discuss with him any differing ideas, and discuss/critique eachother's systems, and help generate discussion

Yeah, that's fine.

So hopefully everything goes well... I agree we are in need of a very flexible/thorough civics system. Though, the number of civics, or how different it is, are not an object to me.

The one main angle I'm looking from is playability- while the goal of this mod is realism, playability shouldn't have to be sacrificed. Ideas of dialog boxes that let you choose subset Civics or one Civic for each possible combination of ideologies seems a bit too intense for me - overwhelming the player with a myriad of choices. I made 6 Executive and 6 Suffrage Civics to allow the player to fine tune what they want, so there's 36 combinations.

And I'm perfectly comfortable with working with GeneralSpecific, that's not a problem. I just wanted to scribe my ideas for specific bonuses for each civic, instead of general ideas of what the civic is/should do.

 

[kevinman4404]

Oh, and are you able to debug? I personally had no real luck with that

looking forward to seeing everyon'e civic ideas!

 

[Gooblah]

Oh, and are you able to debug? I personally had no real luck with that

looking forward to seeing everyon'e civic ideas!

ummm

Well, I can create a debug DLL without a problem...what to do after that I have no clue about.

Attached is the REAL FILE.

 

[GeneralSpecific]

This is all good and well! I do not profess to know everything, and if anything, I tend to overthink, but I think this is for the better anyway; you and I, Gooblah, ought to discuss the reasoning behind our systems in hopes of forging the best of the two.

I do greatly appreciate the fact that you are far more advanced in the realm of programming than I am. I am nearly a coding invalid...

I work better in discussion, but I have a tedious mind. My ideas may be abstract and shifty for the mean time, but this is just me thinking out loud. I am going to try to begin a discussion on the our Mod forum in the civics thread over the foundations of the system I am creating, and I hope to gain a great deal of insight and good an impersonal argumentation. I very much enjoy making systems interworkable, meaning the desired combinations will always be available to the player. Granted, the current system is cumbersome and complicated as it stands, but the rough edges will be made smooth.

@Kev

My only concern with the civics system is the multi-branch system; how can it work? Is the player only the executive and the other branches operated by the A.I.? If so, how would this affect playability? If not, does the player then somehow operate all branches of government? Does this destroy the purpose of having the option to define the branches?

 

[kevinman4404]

I believe the player is in charge of all. I do not think I or anyone really has the skill to put the AI in charge of them, though I will definitely consider any suggestions

Institutional: I don't really see how you can significantly control this
Legal: (there have been no big changes to this from the original civ4 legal civics)
Suffrage: no power over this, as in civ4 you are guaranteed to be the ruler at all times
Executive: depends to a limited degree on other civics but really civ4 game mechanics are not advanced enough
Organization: nothing in civ4 lets you define this, really

So, I do not think it is currently possible to define these things without civics, and I'm not sure we are skilled enough to make them defineable. So unfortunately I bet we are stuck with mocking them with civics (which I agree seems shallow)(which is mainly why civics are going to be so important). If anyone has any ideas, please let me know!

And although it is a shallow way of doing things, at least you can choose the kind of government you want through civics, and either take advantage of it by doing things that the civics aid (such as getting vassals with vassalage), or choose to do something different and not take advantage of them. I'm not sure if that makes much sense :S but I think it sorta does

 

[GeneralSpecific]

Well, we could emphasize the stability gained or lost for certain combinations of civics, and stability being a sort of prerequisite for free exercise of power. Like an unstable combination of government forms could lead to instability or even dissolution when the government tries to act. Something like in Rye's.