World History Mod development thread

Okay, I'm happy with debate, and I'll be willing to conceed my point if I must, but could someone actually address some of the points I have brought up please?

I think the points you brought up are simply a question of taste. Even if some are similar, that's just they are in real life, it's more historicly correct to leave them as the really are. Personnaly I never played a mod where flags were exceptionally distracting, but maybe it's just me... As for actual border of the country maybe dynamic flag can be modded in?

Even though this is a world history mod, the realities of gameplay means that borders, colonial empires and international standing will not be the same as in real life. Why would, for example, Commonwealth countries feature the Union Jack in their canton if, in game, the British Empire is limited to the British Isles and part of Iceland?
There is other historical flag to play with.;)

So all in all, It's just a question of opinion, we just have to wait to see what kevinman4404 prefer:)
 
Actually if distinctive colours are going to be a problem, then I'd be more worried about borders than flags, since decal flags at least give you two colours to work with. Given that, I wouldn't think it would be wise for Civ colours to change when flags do, so it would be possible to keep track based on colour combinations. If there are just 20 colours to choose from, there will be enough potential combinations to make far, far more than enough unique-coloured flags for each nation.

I know static flags can look pretty good, but they are exceptionally hard to pull off, and the best results are generally flags that feature large amounts of flat colour, such as tricolours, and with no emblem or one right in the centre.

Other good reasons for avoiding historical flags include:
- Some flags are too similar, especially in the modern era. Ignoring rare cases like Chad and Romania, there are many flags which are very similar apart from the order of the colours used. To make it clearer, one of them has to change.
- Up until very recently, most countries outside of Europe just plain didn't use flags at all, let alone national flags. Revisionist flag-making for dead cultures kinda distracts from the point of this mod.
- Afghanistan. Enough said.
- Some flags are exceptionally distracting. I have played with a real American flag featured. It's like a corner of my screen turned into a five-year-old screaming for endless attention.
- Even though this is a world history mod, the realities of gameplay means that borders, colonial empires and international standing will not be the same as in real life. Why would, for example, Commonwealth countries feature the Union Jack in their canton if, in game, the British Empire is limited to the British Isles and part of Iceland?
- Everyone keeps turning flags on their sides so the work as hanging banners. It looks awful!

A civ keeps the same border colors, but the flag changes. This is different than a civ having a set of border colors for one decal flag, and then another set of border colors for another decal flag.

For those civs that didn't have flags, you could instead use a symbol which represents that civilization. The flags will change with events most likely, but I don't like the idea of having 1 symbol to represent every civilization... it might work for some factions, but not for others.
 
A civ keeps the same border colors, but the flag changes. This is different than a civ having a set of border colors for one decal flag, and then another set of border colors for another decal flag.

For those civs that didn't have flags, you could instead use a symbol which represents that civilization. The flags will change with events most likely, but I don't like the idea of having 1 symbol to represent every civilization... it might work for some factions, but not for others.
You misunderstand what I'm arguing for. I like the idea that flags should change over time according to historical nation changes. It's a good idea. However, I am arguing that the colours used for the flags (and thus, also the borders) should not change at all. That way if, say, the Roman Empire evolves into the Papal States through some random event, the two nations would be linked by their shared purple flag with a gold emblem. At least that way their flags would also consistantly match their borders, and be exceptionally easy to identify.
 
You misunderstand what I'm arguing for. I like the idea that flags should change over time according to historical nation changes. It's a good idea. However, I am arguing that the colours used for the flags (and thus, also the borders) should not change at all. That way if, say, the Roman Empire evolves into the Papal States through some random event, the two nations would be linked by their shared purple flag with a gold emblem. At least that way their flags would also consistantly match their borders, and be exceptionally easy to identify.

Would be a little hard with some civs...

Luckily you'll have some easy ones like Poland. And Fireaxis made some other civs like Greece, light blue which could also work with it's modern flag.
 
Guys, it looks like there'll be no dynamic flags. It looks like the code's there for it, but I don't see this working. Civs requiring a name change will have the combined most important flag- this will keep me from having to invent flags/decals in some cases, and will free time for other things. Really, I doubt it's incredibly important.

If I do historic flags, they'll be historic flags. If I do decals, they will match the colour of the borders to some degree. Chances are I'll be doing both historic flags and decals. There's just no way we'll be able to have historic flags even for civs like "Aro Confederacy." And I doubt I'll come up with enough decals for all the mesopotamian civs, for example (there are quite a few I haven't yet listed).

Anyways I'll let you know my plans, and later, which civs will get a flag and which will get a decal (along with a description of it), then if you disagree with any I can do my best to change it to what is most desired.

Kevin
 
You misunderstand what I'm arguing for. I like the idea that flags should change over time according to historical nation changes. It's a good idea. However, I am arguing that the colours used for the flags (and thus, also the borders) should not change at all. That way if, say, the Roman Empire evolves into the Papal States through some random event, the two nations would be linked by their shared purple flag with a gold emblem. At least that way their flags would also consistantly match their borders, and be exceptionally easy to identify.

There is some misunderstanding here, but I think that you're not completely understanding me.

I'm agreeing that flags should change, and I'm agreeing that a civ should keep the same border colors. All I'm saying is that the flags used should not be decal flags (bicolor flags which are dependent on the civ's border colors), because that limits us significantly. If the flag is a static flag, it can have any color (and a variety of them, too) without affecting the civ's border colors.

It's not important for one faction to use the same two colors on their flag throughout history: it's restrictive, and didn't always happen that way.
 
If I do historic flags, they'll be historic flags. If I do decals, they will match the colour of the borders to some degree. Chances are I'll be doing both historic flags and decals. There's just no way we'll be able to have historic flags even for civs like "Aro Confederacy." And I doubt I'll come up with enough decals for all the mesopotamian civs, for example (there are quite a few I haven't yet listed).
That's probably the wisest choice, I guess. Still, I'm happy to offer my services for making decals if they are needed. And if so I'm also happy to make optional decal flags for the remaining civs if anyone, like me, prefers them. Perhaps having an option would make everyone happy.

There is some misunderstanding here, but I think that you're not completely understanding me.

I'm agreeing that flags should change, and I'm agreeing that a civ should keep the same border colors. All I'm saying is that the flags used should not be decal flags (bicolor flags which are dependent on the civ's border colors), because that limits us significantly. If the flag is a static flag, it can have any color (and a variety of them, too) without affecting the civ's border colors.

It's not important for one faction to use the same two colors on their flag throughout history: it's restrictive, and didn't always happen that way.
Okay, I did misunderstand you. I apologise for that. However, I still don't feel that duel-colour flags are restrictive in any way, and I stand by my previous comments. However, we'll probably just have to see how things go in the long run.
 
It's OK, Matt.

This is why I feel decal flags are restrictive:

1) You can have a maximum of 2 colors on the flag. What if a flag uses up like 5 colors? Most flags use 3. Decal flags can't properly represent these.

2) Every flag has to use the same colors. Let's say you can manage to use a symbol to represent a civ (so the number of colors isn't an issue); you still are restricted to using the same "border" colors regardless. Let's say you have the Celts with their flag decal branch off into the Irish with a new flag decal - both decals will have to use the same border colors, even though it may make sense for one flag and not the other.

3) To further add to the 2nd problem, what if 2 players play as the same civ? The game assigns a random color which may not make any sense at all.
 
i came up with an idea while having lunch, :)crazyeye:)

What if instead of having Horse Archers, Knights etc. what if there called "Mounted Archers" and "Mounted Knights" etc. And have it so it requires a Camel/Horse/Elephant/Llama/Donkey/Reindeer/etc. to build them? Could also work for Chariot's.

And a feature that wouldn't be as important would be, each unit (ie: Camel Archer, Horse Archer) would have it's own graphics and if you have more then one of the required resources, you can build both types of archers. For example, if you have both Horses and Camels, you can make both Horse Archers and Camel Archers.

Although a Mounted Elephant Knight, or an Elephant Chariot would be kinda weird, so what if we just kept it at "war elephant" and have no elephant chariots? :p

Also, you said that you don't have Horses on the Earth Map because there not considered a "resource" in your sources, i'm guessing Camels and Elephants aren't on the map yet either. *hint hint*
 
@Lastone36: Camels are but horses and elephants aren't yet. Camels are there because I used online research for those, as I will with horses and elephants. I'll place them asap. What was your hint? :)

I'm not sure I see what you mean... knights and chariots do require horses, and war elephants require elephants. Really the only change you're suggesting is that I rename them, matching them to the graphics of the non-mounted unit.


As it seems, decals will not be for all civs, that's a guarantee. But I'll acknowledge that there's definitely a high requirement for them; best example being Sumeria, Akkad, Babylonia, Assryia, Hussites, and I don't think that's all the far-back mesopotamian civs... There's no way I'll be able to come up with a historical flag for each... mind you, on the opposite end, I'm not sure I'll be able to come up with a suitable decal for each either... it's going to take some innovative inventing.

@Mattastic~ Thank you for offering to help out in that case, I'll let you know as soon as I can what exactly is going to happen... I'm starting the listings shortly.

Kevin
 
Kev, I got some Economics Civics defined for you (7 of them) listed in order according to the amount of government intervention, from none to absolute. I hope this helps you a bit on that. I am working on a list of other civics so you can incorporate them into the project if you wish.

Decentralization-
The economy serves no interest.

Economic activity is conducted through a barter system on and individual basis. The government exercises no interest in the effects of the economy on their civilization. Economic growth is sluggish and technological advancement is tedious.

Free Markets-
The economy should serve the interests of the individual.
Businesses are free to operate without fraud, coercion, and regulation on wages and production. Competition is unnecessary for the existence of free markets. Labor begins specializing and technology rapidly advances as the economy expands.

Collectivism-
The economy should serve the goal of creating a stateless, classless society.

The public is granted ownership of the means of production in order to eliminate the capitalist. Workforce is de-specialized and production surpluses are prohibited. Creativity becomes a centerpiece of a civilization’s culture. Production and military advances decline while the standard of living increases through advancements in medical and social innovations.

Mixed Economy (Capitalism)-
The economy should balance the interests of the government and the individual.

Governmental regulations are used to protect the consumer, environment, and competitiveness in the market. Currency is monopolized by a Central Bank in order to manipulate the money supply. Inflationary policies are pursued to balance employment and prices.

Mercantilism-
The economy should serve the interests of the empire.

Domestic industries are subsidized by the government to maximize exports. Imports are banned to prevent an outflow of the civilization’s centralized, commodity-backed currency. The constant need of market expansion leads to imperialism. Government-funded institutions are established to advance the arts and sciences.

Corporatism-
The economy should serve the interests of the government and the elite.

Political power is given to corporations by the government to form legitimate cartels and monopolies over their respective industries. Economic expansion occurs through territorial expansion. Strong currency actively pursued.

Nationalization-
The economy should serve the goal of establishing economic and social equality.

Major Industries are placed under government ownership and operation. Economy is centrally-planned. Currency is monopolized by a Central Bank in order to manipulate the money supply. Inflation is necessary to pursue a welfare state, so currency value is relatively unimportant.
 
Thank you :) I read them all and they seem good.

The way the civics screen works is I can have unlimited categories, but the amount of civics per category, in order to be guaranteed stable, neets to be consistent +- 1. So I may have to do trimming in some categories. I'm not familiar with nationalization, though it makes sense; it would be the one to go if I have to fit 4-6 civics.

Thanks again, you'll be credited for your civics too :)
 
Nationalization is actually a highly used economic idea. In Venezuela, the oil industry, among others, is under the control of the government, not private. Nationalized Healthcare is also the product of a nationalized economy. Nationalization can also be called "socialism," but I prefer to think of socialism as a socio-economic idea, not soley economic.
 
I'd say no foreign trade routes for nationalization.

If a country nationalized foreign businesses it takes them over without compensating their owners: as a result there is no guarantee for investment and stability, thus significantly reducing foreign investment in the country, and most likely reducing actual business to those nationalized firms as a means of protest.
 
I'd say no foreign trade routes for nationalization.

If a country nationalized foreign businesses it takes them over without compensating their owners: as a result there is no guarantee for investment and stability, thus significantly reducing foreign investment in the country, and most likely reducing actual business to those nationalized firms as a means of protest.

I forgot about that. Yeah, that is definitely a key part of Nationalization: no foreign businesses, like Collectivism and Mercantilism.
 
Alright, but if one had to go to keep it stable, which would you choose? And although there's no guarantee, I'll try the civics screen with varying numbers of civics in each category, in case I get lucky.

Kevin
 
Okay...I'm not sure if you need help on this, but here's a shortlist of religions in my view (I'm listing branches of each religion that have impacted world history IMO):

Spoiler :

Hinduism
Buddhism
Theravada
Mahayana
Zen?
Confucianism
(Dao)Taoism
Christianity
Catholicism
Eastern Orthodoxy
Calvinism
Lutheranism
Anglicanism
Puritanism
Baptism
(I'm not Christian, so please add more)
Islam
Sunni
Shi'a
Sufi?
Baha'i Faith?
Sikhism
Jainism
Judaism
Orthodox
Reform
Conservative
Classical Dodecahedronism
Mesopotamian Polytheism
Zoroastrianism


Class. Dode. refers to the Greco-Roman Pantheon. Mesopotamian Polytheism refers to the pre-Persian dominance Sumerian/Akkadian/Assyrian/Babylonian pantheon.
 
Kev, if I had to do away with one, I would ditch collectivism, for no particular reason. I really believe that these are all very relevant and if the only problem is making sure that each column has an equal number of civics, I can certainly, with a little time, come up with seven for each, taken that you want to do seven in each. It's up to you.

By the way, just to throw this by you, I have been coming up with a list of other civic types and their specific civics

Foreign Policy-
Subjugation
Imperialism
Occupation
Unilateralism
Interventionism- All of the Above
Multilateralism- Advanced alliances become possible
Non-intervention- Alliances are disbanded

Social Policy-
Tribalism- People serve the needs of their tribe
Stratification- People live in a hierarchy- by wealth, property, and race
Caste System- People serve a permanent social structure
Communalism- People serve the community
Nationalism- People serve the needs of the nation
Egalitarian- People are inherently equal
Internationalism- People are a part of a global community

Legal Civics-
Barbarism- A state of lawlessness.
Vassalage- Laws created through a social hierarchy
Divine- Laws created by Divine Mandate.
Majoritarian- Laws created by the majority of the legislative branch.
Common Law- Laws defined by Judicial Precedence- Courts make law.
Bi-Cameralism- Laws created by both the Majority and Minority of the legislative branch.
Marshall Law- Laws created by executive branch. Can be declared in national emergencies.

Still working!
 
Ummm Gooblah, Did I read that right? Classical Dodecahedronism?!? If i were to convert, would i become a dodecahedron?!?

A dodecahedron is a shape, yeah? with 12 sides?
 
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