Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
Civ has always simplified concepts. I really don't see any sort of "deep model" being implimented, especially with what Soren has said in the past.
Worldreligions or Generic-only-Religions
- Thread starter Loppan Torkel
- Start date
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
Which ties into my other point, that any superficial model of religion would end up feeling like "team names" than anything else. France and Germany are Christian and thus can crusade against team Buddha.
And domestically, if it's going to divide your population, they might as well model something ELSE that divides population -- like class or ethnicity -- a lot better.
That kind of religion is useless as far as the game is concerned.
And domestically, if it's going to divide your population, they might as well model something ELSE that divides population -- like class or ethnicity -- a lot better.
That kind of religion is useless as far as the game is concerned.
Earlier, I suggested that players could define their civ as one of the broad classes of religion (animist/polytheist/mootheist/secularist). When they obtain the appropriate techs (see The World of the Mind for an alternate religion tech research model), they get a ONE=TIME choice to switch to that religion class.
The only game effect of religion is to enable/disable different city improvements and wonders. Also, the wonders should be generic as far as possible, and mutually exclusive where not. For example, the Temple of Artemis great wonder has a prereq "has not built the Horn of Valhalla". This way, all religious wonders any given civ builds will always be of a consistent religion - No civ should have both the Qa'aba and the Sistine Chapel as great wonders.
The main issue to decide here is what effect exactly the religious wonders should have, and what happens if they are ever captured. I think if they are captured, they are DESTROYED if directly incompatible with the civ's current religion (A civ with he Temple of Artemis catpures a city which has the Horn of Valhalla), and become tourist attractions if merely of the wrong broad grouping (A monotheist civ captures the city which has the Horn of Valhalla).
Thoughts?
The only game effect of religion is to enable/disable different city improvements and wonders. Also, the wonders should be generic as far as possible, and mutually exclusive where not. For example, the Temple of Artemis great wonder has a prereq "has not built the Horn of Valhalla". This way, all religious wonders any given civ builds will always be of a consistent religion - No civ should have both the Qa'aba and the Sistine Chapel as great wonders.
The main issue to decide here is what effect exactly the religious wonders should have, and what happens if they are ever captured. I think if they are captured, they are DESTROYED if directly incompatible with the civ's current religion (A civ with he Temple of Artemis catpures a city which has the Horn of Valhalla), and become tourist attractions if merely of the wrong broad grouping (A monotheist civ captures the city which has the Horn of Valhalla).
Thoughts?
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
I think maybe just the idea of incompatible wonders is a neat idea. Don't even need to bring "pick your religion" into it. As the game goes on, you get the opportunity to build various great wonders, but some are incompatible with others.
It would have the immersiveness and maybe even the strategy (forced into making choices). All without the messiness of trying to figure out which religions get what and how they work, not that I could see that adding anything.
It would have the immersiveness and maybe even the strategy (forced into making choices). All without the messiness of trying to figure out which religions get what and how they work, not that I could see that adding anything.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
If they should change something about culture, it should be the idea that it can coexist in a square with other cultures. Also, it should not determine national borders, just ease of control of those borders. Here is what I mean.
Memphis generates 2 cpt of Egyptian culture. In 5 turns it will have cultural influence one. That means culture extends 1 square in every direction(since national borders no longer determined this way). It deposits in foreign cities cpt equal to its influence, if connected by tradeable means(including rivers and coasts within MP distance of the most modern ships). Once the Egyptian culture reaches 10, it will extend one square out from that city square as well.
A couple notes on this.
1) the culture spreading was only to the nearest border cities first. From their saturation will continue the same way.
2) multiple cultures can have influence over a square, important for conquest.
This system could be ketp as is, or the mixture of cultures could be used for a further effect, including regionalism, new cultures, etc. Its simple, but has moddable potential.
Memphis generates 2 cpt of Egyptian culture. In 5 turns it will have cultural influence one. That means culture extends 1 square in every direction(since national borders no longer determined this way). It deposits in foreign cities cpt equal to its influence, if connected by tradeable means(including rivers and coasts within MP distance of the most modern ships). Once the Egyptian culture reaches 10, it will extend one square out from that city square as well.
A couple notes on this.
1) the culture spreading was only to the nearest border cities first. From their saturation will continue the same way.
2) multiple cultures can have influence over a square, important for conquest.
This system could be ketp as is, or the mixture of cultures could be used for a further effect, including regionalism, new cultures, etc. Its simple, but has moddable potential.
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
Yeah, I've gotta say, a better model of culture is right on the money. A few religious units that help you generate a quick boost to culture would be a great way to tie in religion without any particular denomination or origin. Greece creates a religious unit, and sends it to another city or square to generate 10 quick culture points. That's a loose idea, anyway.
It opens up a much more dynamic picture of reality -- culture has always been a factor and has moved in similar ways with different means. Religion is much more of a moving target, ebbing and flowing with power depending on the time and place.
It opens up a much more dynamic picture of reality -- culture has always been a factor and has moved in similar ways with different means. Religion is much more of a moving target, ebbing and flowing with power depending on the time and place.
ok, to expand my idea somewhat.
Basic religion groupings, with their wonders
Animist
Stonehenge
Hagar Qim (in Malta)
Uluru (aka Ayer's Rock. Not technically built, but the myths surrounding it had to be 'built')
Polytheist
Norse:
Horn of Valhalla
The Bifrost Bridge
(These are a bit mythological, but I can't think of anything else)
Graeco-Roman:
Temple of Zeus
Temple of Artemis
The Oracle
Meso-American:
Chichen Itza
(others? What was in that conquests scenario?)
Egyptian:
The Pyramids
The Sphinx
Babylonian:
Epic of Gilgamesh
Monotheist
Due to the intertwined nature of the three major monotheistic faiths, some of these wonders can be built by more than one of these groups. Muslim, Protestant, and Jewish wonders seem to be lacking. I can't think of any more.
Dome of the Rock (compatible with all monotheistic groups)
Hagia Sophia (Orthodox, Muslim)
The Ark of the Covenant (Catholic, Orthodox, Judaism)
Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Catholic, Orthodox)
The Knights Templar (any Christian)
JS Bach's Cathedral (any Christian)
The Holy Grail (any Christian)
Catholic: (7 wonders)
The Sistine Chapel (nb this is a part of the Vatican; the Vatican probably shouldn't be a separate wonder)
Orthodox: (8 wonders)
St Basil's Cathedral
Protestant: (5 wonders)
The Gutenburg Bible
Muslim: (6 wonders)
The Qa'aba
Qutab Minar (Delhi)
Travels of Ibn Battuta (immediately get territory map off every civ on same continent, and establishes contact with them)
Jihad (a relatively modern one, produces some kind of unit)
Judaism: (5 wonders)
The Wailing Wall
The Dead Sea Scrolls
The Temple of Solomon
Dharmic
(This includes Hinduism, Buddhism, and Shinto (in its merged form with Buddhism). The defining characteristic is a belief in reincarnation.
Hindu:
The Ramayana
The Mahabharata
Somnath Temple
Angkor Wat
The Taj Mahal
Buddhist:
Potala Palace
Stupa of the Wild Goose
Mogao Caves
Pagan Pagodas
Shintoist:
(various major shrines from throughout Japan can be used here)
Secularist
Theory of Evolution (as a direct denial of a theist-origin, this belongs here)
Perhaps most of the modern science wonders could be placed here, to give a decent incentive to go secularist?
I haven't yet contemplated what effect any of these wonders should have. This list is neither exhaustive nor necessarily a list of those that must be included.
To restate the basic rules on religion in this model:
Basic religion groupings, with their wonders
Animist
Stonehenge
Hagar Qim (in Malta)
Uluru (aka Ayer's Rock. Not technically built, but the myths surrounding it had to be 'built')
Polytheist
Norse:
Horn of Valhalla
The Bifrost Bridge
(These are a bit mythological, but I can't think of anything else)
Graeco-Roman:
Temple of Zeus
Temple of Artemis
The Oracle
Meso-American:
Chichen Itza
(others? What was in that conquests scenario?)
Egyptian:
The Pyramids
The Sphinx
Babylonian:
Epic of Gilgamesh
Monotheist
Due to the intertwined nature of the three major monotheistic faiths, some of these wonders can be built by more than one of these groups. Muslim, Protestant, and Jewish wonders seem to be lacking. I can't think of any more.
Dome of the Rock (compatible with all monotheistic groups)
Hagia Sophia (Orthodox, Muslim)
The Ark of the Covenant (Catholic, Orthodox, Judaism)
Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Catholic, Orthodox)
The Knights Templar (any Christian)
JS Bach's Cathedral (any Christian)
The Holy Grail (any Christian)
Catholic: (7 wonders)
The Sistine Chapel (nb this is a part of the Vatican; the Vatican probably shouldn't be a separate wonder)
Orthodox: (8 wonders)
St Basil's Cathedral
Protestant: (5 wonders)
The Gutenburg Bible
Muslim: (6 wonders)
The Qa'aba
Qutab Minar (Delhi)
Travels of Ibn Battuta (immediately get territory map off every civ on same continent, and establishes contact with them)
Jihad (a relatively modern one, produces some kind of unit)
Judaism: (5 wonders)
The Wailing Wall
The Dead Sea Scrolls
The Temple of Solomon
Dharmic
(This includes Hinduism, Buddhism, and Shinto (in its merged form with Buddhism). The defining characteristic is a belief in reincarnation.
Hindu:
The Ramayana
The Mahabharata
Somnath Temple
Angkor Wat
The Taj Mahal
Buddhist:
Potala Palace
Stupa of the Wild Goose
Mogao Caves
Pagan Pagodas
Shintoist:
(various major shrines from throughout Japan can be used here)
Secularist
Theory of Evolution (as a direct denial of a theist-origin, this belongs here)
Perhaps most of the modern science wonders could be placed here, to give a decent incentive to go secularist?
I haven't yet contemplated what effect any of these wonders should have. This list is neither exhaustive nor necessarily a list of those that must be included.
To restate the basic rules on religion in this model:
- You start with Animism as your religion.
- Each time you research a religion tech (Polytheism, Monotheism, Dharma, Secularism), you get a one-time option to change to that religion. Note that this means you can never go back. It also means that if you decide not to change now, you can never change to that religion group.
- Changing religion automatically makes all your religious wonders obsolete. (optional) They do continue to generate culture.
- You can only build wonders that are compatible with your current religion.
- Changing religion should result in lots of civil disorder for a few turns.
K.F. Huszár
Warlord
rhialto
it is a good and more realistic idea.
anyway, you should not choose your religion (or it would be only option).
Some factors could decide what religion you are given thru a Prophet (a kind of Great Leader).
Factors: your civ traits; your civ's behaviour (your game style); natural environment; other civs' influences; government form(or society scheme)
dh_epic
i think religions are compareable. if not, then close all faculties of sociology and history in every single university of the world.
Any ideas???
it is a good and more realistic idea.
anyway, you should not choose your religion (or it would be only option).
Some factors could decide what religion you are given thru a Prophet (a kind of Great Leader).
Factors: your civ traits; your civ's behaviour (your game style); natural environment; other civs' influences; government form(or society scheme)
dh_epic
i think religions are compareable. if not, then close all faculties of sociology and history in every single university of the world.
Any ideas???
Just like sometimes there will be a Military leader or a Scientific leader in CIV3 I think there should be a religious leader which appears randomly at different times and begins to convert people to his religion. You can choose to kill or imprison him to stop his activities but you may risk making him a martyr and that makes things worse.
@K.F. Huszár
I agree that choosing your religion is sub-optimal, but for sales reasons, it is probably necessary. The alternatives are to predesignate them as a characteristic of the civ alongside traits, which defeats the point of my system, or imposing them randomly on the player. Given that a more than few players are probably religious, to suddenly find themselves in charge of a civ with an imposed religion which goes against their beliefs, that will kill the game for them.
@Teabeard
I guess we could have religious great leaders who can either complete a religious great wonder (other great leaders can't finish these) or give you an option to change your religion again.
I agree that choosing your religion is sub-optimal, but for sales reasons, it is probably necessary. The alternatives are to predesignate them as a characteristic of the civ alongside traits, which defeats the point of my system, or imposing them randomly on the player. Given that a more than few players are probably religious, to suddenly find themselves in charge of a civ with an imposed religion which goes against their beliefs, that will kill the game for them.
@Teabeard
I guess we could have religious great leaders who can either complete a religious great wonder (other great leaders can't finish these) or give you an option to change your religion again.
Loppan Torkel
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2004
- Messages
- 4,756
@ Rhialto
I would like to see some more regulations in what religion you should be able choose. If you're the first to research the new religion you should be able to choose it, if you're not there's a chance that some civ across the globe already changed to that religion, which makes you choosing the same religion the turn after unrealistic. If you also want it you should have to wait until it somehow has spread to your civ.
The other option, which has been suggested before, would be to let a prophet appear some time after you've researched a certain religion, and give you the option to change. If the prophet appeared at the other side of the globe, there could be an estimated time before a missionary would appear in your civ, giving you the option to convert.
Other than that I like your idea and I still look forward to play civ4 with a good religious system that is not pure cosmetics, which I'm sure Fireaxis is good enough to prevent.
I would like to see some more regulations in what religion you should be able choose. If you're the first to research the new religion you should be able to choose it, if you're not there's a chance that some civ across the globe already changed to that religion, which makes you choosing the same religion the turn after unrealistic. If you also want it you should have to wait until it somehow has spread to your civ.
The other option, which has been suggested before, would be to let a prophet appear some time after you've researched a certain religion, and give you the option to change. If the prophet appeared at the other side of the globe, there could be an estimated time before a missionary would appear in your civ, giving you the option to convert.
Other than that I like your idea and I still look forward to play civ4 with a good religious system that is not pure cosmetics, which I'm sure Fireaxis is good enough to prevent.
@Loppan Torkel
My orginal intention was that when you research your first religion tech (probably polytheism), you have an option to switch from Animism to Polytheism. The exact choice of religion isn't imposed on you until you have built your first religious wonder. However, I think it would actullay work better if you have to choose your exact religion then and there. That way you don't get a wide variety of city improvement temple buildings appearing. It also gives the option to have religion-specific bonuses (or penalties) to help counter the lack of wonders with some of the religions.
I like the idea of restricting the specific religion choice to those you either have contact with or have not yet been chosen. I don't think a player should have the option of preventing another from choosing the same religion if they have established contact. However, restricting religion choice does kill the potential for early game religious wonder races. That can be balanced somewhat simply by keeping the number of wonders per early game religion deliberately low, but get a decent island and a strong religion and there's nothing to stop you scooping them all up.
My orginal intention was that when you research your first religion tech (probably polytheism), you have an option to switch from Animism to Polytheism. The exact choice of religion isn't imposed on you until you have built your first religious wonder. However, I think it would actullay work better if you have to choose your exact religion then and there. That way you don't get a wide variety of city improvement temple buildings appearing. It also gives the option to have religion-specific bonuses (or penalties) to help counter the lack of wonders with some of the religions.
I like the idea of restricting the specific religion choice to those you either have contact with or have not yet been chosen. I don't think a player should have the option of preventing another from choosing the same religion if they have established contact. However, restricting religion choice does kill the potential for early game religious wonder races. That can be balanced somewhat simply by keeping the number of wonders per early game religion deliberately low, but get a decent island and a strong religion and there's nothing to stop you scooping them all up.
K.F. Huszár
Warlord
@Teabird, Loppan Torkel, rhialto, etc.
I see the debate taking a good, creative direction.
that's nice.
i would add that religions might hae some traits. but here we make it round back to the original question: world religions or generic only religions?
I think if world nations exist in the game then world religions should appear!!!
I see the debate taking a good, creative direction.
that's nice.
i would add that religions might hae some traits. but here we make it round back to the original question: world religions or generic only religions?
I think if world nations exist in the game then world religions should appear!!!
raistlin291
Demon Possessed
I think this is a great idea, but you should include other, non monotheistic religions. If you can't tell, I'm an atheist. Beyond that, good idea, go for it!
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
I don't think I ever said you couldn't compare religions... just that sometimes there are huge differences that make trying to map one figure or symbol onto another (Jesus onto Mohammed) is not as easy. Sure they're both founders, but one is considered the son of God, and the other considered but a prophet. Not to mention the greater point I've been trying to make -- religion is a moving target. Not to say its effects go away, but they change. The effects of Christianity in 0 BC are different from Christianity in 700 AD, let alone 1200 AD, let alone 1700 AD, let alone now ... Not to mention comparing that to the effects of Islam in 700 AD, or the effects of Buddhism.
I like your idea a shade, Rhialto. And I guess in a game where all the people in your Civ end up being assimilated into the same *ethnicity*, and everyone is the same class, it wouldn't be that much of a jump to have everyone the same religion. And by not allowing them to turn back or change, you achieve a much greater level of realism. I'd laugh myself stupid if someone expected Italy to become Hindu, or Iran become Buddhist.
The wonders and improvements are really the most important part, when all is said and done. (With some modifications, to add/remove some sensibly.) Wonders and improvements are basically in place in Civ 3.
Still, not sure if you even need the religious class system, though. You could even just use Civ 3 plus a bunch of permissions / constraints.
You could just make wonders prohibit others or cancel out others. Just as an example, you permit both the temple of zeus and michaelangelo's chapel, but you can't have both michaelangelo's chapel and the taj mahal.
You'd have a sense of your religion because your nation would start to look more and more "christianized", or more and more "hindu-ized". You start venturing down a path with your improvements and there's no turning back.
I like your idea a shade, Rhialto. And I guess in a game where all the people in your Civ end up being assimilated into the same *ethnicity*, and everyone is the same class, it wouldn't be that much of a jump to have everyone the same religion. And by not allowing them to turn back or change, you achieve a much greater level of realism. I'd laugh myself stupid if someone expected Italy to become Hindu, or Iran become Buddhist.
The wonders and improvements are really the most important part, when all is said and done. (With some modifications, to add/remove some sensibly.) Wonders and improvements are basically in place in Civ 3.
Still, not sure if you even need the religious class system, though. You could even just use Civ 3 plus a bunch of permissions / constraints.
You could just make wonders prohibit others or cancel out others. Just as an example, you permit both the temple of zeus and michaelangelo's chapel, but you can't have both michaelangelo's chapel and the taj mahal.
You'd have a sense of your religion because your nation would start to look more and more "christianized", or more and more "hindu-ized". You start venturing down a path with your improvements and there's no turning back.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
All culture is a moving target, but that is ignored by civ as well. Concepts of nationality and ethnicity change, but are all kept constant for gameplay purposes.
As for the cop-out Firaxis should choose, just make it part of the Civ, like traits. Lots of civs share at least one of the traits and can share at least one of the religions.
As for the cop-out Firaxis should choose, just make it part of the Civ, like traits. Lots of civs share at least one of the traits and can share at least one of the religions.
I agree with the basic concept of starting out a religion at the beginning and then as you discover other religions through the tech tree - you can choose which one you want to go to.
However, I don't think that relgion should be kept so static and unflexable. IF you do you take away a really major and innovative part of it out.
Instead of just changing from one religion to another in one big swift move - one should have a civ slowly converting over to the other religon that you chooxe. Buldings and other units can help in the conversion rate. Also, as you can have for example an Eygpitian in a roman city, so to should you be able to have lets say one citizen a hindu, two citizens Jewish, 3 christian, and then maybe one muslim - this based on the fact that you've just changed over from Chritianty to Islam - or which ever way you want it, put the mechanices are more important then the acutally detail.
That way - you can also use your units to convert citizens off other civs as well to your course - be they that religion or not. This way, with your civ flucuating between various religions - you have a much more dinamic - and a more robust model of religion actually taking a very active role in the game.
The religous effects will be born out in the culture model and also how happy a person is or unhappy - will also effect civil unrest or if a city goes over a bit eaier to one civ or not, or does not rrevolt when captured. Also, all relgious buildings and such should only effect the moral of the citizens of that particualr relgion.
A jew ain't gonna be too happy with a mosque - and if you've chosen Islam as your religon of the State - all those citizens which are of differnt beliefs ain't gonna be effected by your religous buildings and such - however, the conversion rate is something sepearte depeding on how you do things. Once they get converted, then all the religous effects they will begin to recieve it.
I personally think that model of religion in Civ is alot more appealing then one static state, this way religoin is an actuall moving force within the game -and represent the real world excellantly - although not perfectly, I think it will do a damn good job of it.
However, I don't think that relgion should be kept so static and unflexable. IF you do you take away a really major and innovative part of it out.
Instead of just changing from one religion to another in one big swift move - one should have a civ slowly converting over to the other religon that you chooxe. Buldings and other units can help in the conversion rate. Also, as you can have for example an Eygpitian in a roman city, so to should you be able to have lets say one citizen a hindu, two citizens Jewish, 3 christian, and then maybe one muslim - this based on the fact that you've just changed over from Chritianty to Islam - or which ever way you want it, put the mechanices are more important then the acutally detail.
That way - you can also use your units to convert citizens off other civs as well to your course - be they that religion or not. This way, with your civ flucuating between various religions - you have a much more dinamic - and a more robust model of religion actually taking a very active role in the game.
The religous effects will be born out in the culture model and also how happy a person is or unhappy - will also effect civil unrest or if a city goes over a bit eaier to one civ or not, or does not rrevolt when captured. Also, all relgious buildings and such should only effect the moral of the citizens of that particualr relgion.
A jew ain't gonna be too happy with a mosque - and if you've chosen Islam as your religon of the State - all those citizens which are of differnt beliefs ain't gonna be effected by your religous buildings and such - however, the conversion rate is something sepearte depeding on how you do things. Once they get converted, then all the religous effects they will begin to recieve it.
I personally think that model of religion in Civ is alot more appealing then one static state, this way religoin is an actuall moving force within the game -and represent the real world excellantly - although not perfectly, I think it will do a damn good job of it.
P.S.
I don't see why you can't move from an earlier religion to one of the newer ones. - I mean vice - verser, why can't you move from a newer religion to an older one?
Why is that you can only convert to newer religion. Its actually implying that a newer religion is better -which shouldn't be the case. Why can't a state choose to go back to Hinduism if Islam isn't working out, just becuase Islam in newer should imply that it is better.
Even if that isn't a distint implication. It would be an actual stratigic disadvantage to older religons - which is not fair. And if you want to reflect the real world - wel alot of people from the newer faiths have converted back to the older faiths. I know of Muslims and Christiand who have become Hindu's - Buddists, or even gone over to Jewdaism. Some people even going back to the really ancient Animsit religions and beliveing in nature and such.
So you should be able to go back and forth.
The only thing is, it takes time for you civ to slowly convert to one or the other religion, and you have the possiblity of civil unrest, cities going over to other civs as well as civ's converting your people to their religoin. Which is all fair in love and war, as they say, cause you can do the same and they get effected by the same things as well. That way, changing religion, isn't such a easy, fly by night thing.
I don't see why you can't move from an earlier religion to one of the newer ones. - I mean vice - verser, why can't you move from a newer religion to an older one?
Why is that you can only convert to newer religion. Its actually implying that a newer religion is better -which shouldn't be the case. Why can't a state choose to go back to Hinduism if Islam isn't working out, just becuase Islam in newer should imply that it is better.
Even if that isn't a distint implication. It would be an actual stratigic disadvantage to older religons - which is not fair. And if you want to reflect the real world - wel alot of people from the newer faiths have converted back to the older faiths. I know of Muslims and Christiand who have become Hindu's - Buddists, or even gone over to Jewdaism. Some people even going back to the really ancient Animsit religions and beliveing in nature and such.
So you should be able to go back and forth.
The only thing is, it takes time for you civ to slowly convert to one or the other religion, and you have the possiblity of civil unrest, cities going over to other civs as well as civ's converting your people to their religoin. Which is all fair in love and war, as they say, cause you can do the same and they get effected by the same things as well. That way, changing religion, isn't such a easy, fly by night thing.
Now - the way I see it. The notion of War - Peace of different religions can be dealt with in a very simple format where no one shoud get offended. I'll have a crack at it.
Depending on what system of Government you have and what religion you and the other Civ Are - then Holy Wars can be declared and will have varying degrees of effect.
Depot - Yes Civil Unrest - NO (minor unrest if same religoin)
Monarch - Yes Civil Unrest - NO (average unrest if same religion)
Repulic - Yes Civil Unrest - Minor (major unrest if same religion)
Democracy - NO
Communist - NO
Theocrisy- YES Civil Unrest - NO (Super Major unrest if same religion).
It needs some working out - but we got a first draft off things might be worked out.
Relgious Characteristics - (not Sure on this - cause if I say anything I know some one will protest) So i'll wait until i think i got it figured out. Or maybe we should just leave that out. The effects one has can be seen through the buildings/units and wonders one can build.
Depending on what system of Government you have and what religion you and the other Civ Are - then Holy Wars can be declared and will have varying degrees of effect.
Depot - Yes Civil Unrest - NO (minor unrest if same religoin)
Monarch - Yes Civil Unrest - NO (average unrest if same religion)
Repulic - Yes Civil Unrest - Minor (major unrest if same religion)
Democracy - NO
Communist - NO
Theocrisy- YES Civil Unrest - NO (Super Major unrest if same religion).
It needs some working out - but we got a first draft off things might be worked out.
Relgious Characteristics - (not Sure on this - cause if I say anything I know some one will protest) So i'll wait until i think i got it figured out. Or maybe we should just leave that out. The effects one has can be seen through the buildings/units and wonders one can build.
